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DonTago
12/25/2003 12:35:33 AM

MORE proof UFO's (Alien spaceships) dont visit earth!!!!!

Just to start, I DO believe there are aliens on other planets, i just believe they have NEVER visited here. I have gathered some more evidence for all you scientifically inept people.

1. Just as the light we see from galaxies is millions of years old. The light that eminates from our sun and that is reflected from our planet earth, takes millions of years to get to other galaxies. For an alien civilization to even be aware that there was a intelligent civilization here to visit, they would have to be at least 10,000 to 5000 light years away. The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 light years across, so any alien life that would be aware of us would have to be within that 10,000 ly radius, which isnt very large. That is only taking into consideration that they have telescopes so far advanced than ours that they could spot a planet as small as ours from that may light years away. The Hubble cant even see planets. The only reason we know other planets exist is because we can see how their orbits affects the stars they circle. So we cant even SEE planets, much less tell if they are inhabited by anything. And our planet is so close to the sun, it would be simply impossible to see from 1000s of light years away, because the light of the sun would totally dominate any images taken of this area. Our closest galaxy Andromeda, is nearly 2 million lys away, so any aliens that could even see the earth now from there would be seeing apes and lizards running around.

2. The oldest stars in our galaxy are the ones that are in the center of the galaxy. So it would be logical any sort of intelligent life would be there, since any life there would have the greatest amount of time to develop interstellar space travel. Its illogical to think any nearby star system has these capabilities because most stars in our general vicinity are relatively the same age. So any planet harboring intelligent life would be roughly on the same timeframe technologically that we are. And so since the center of the galaxy, where all the old stars are, is nearly 30-40,000 lys away, any intelligent life there would only be seeing us that long ago, and not recognise us as an intelligent race of creatures to visit.

3. One person who replied to my last message i quoted saying "maybe the aliens have a different form of radio waves that are more advanced than ours so that our radar cannot pick them up." This is ridiculous. There are no "advanced" radio waves. The electromagnatic spectrum is solid and doesnt get anymore "complex". It is the same everywhere. Any intelligent life would at SOME point along their evolution discover radio waves importance in communicating information. There is no "other" spectrum, and no secret waves the aliens can be using. If they communicate, it has to be thru a wave form. It is the fastest form of commication, they travel at the speed of light, and any aliens would realise this. Humans have been evolving for about 200,000 years, so granted, lets say it takes an avg civilization 300,000 years of evolution to reach the point of interstellar travel. And lets say the avg amount of time between discovery of radio waves, and discovery of interstellar travel is 50,000 years. And since it is only 30-40,000 lys to the center of the galaxy where all the old stars and any sort of intelligent life is, you would think for SURE we would be detecting radiowaves from them, since the right amount of time had passed for us to detect them. But no, we do not detect any. So since that is the threshold where alien life would HAVE to come from to visit earth, its only logical to think the things people are seeing in the air are not alien space ships.

4. Like i said before, there are only two ways aliens can get here. Traveling faster than the speed of light, or worm holes. First of all, its ridiculous to think they are traveling at or near the speed of light, because it would take them hundreds or thousands of years to do so, since most likely they are that many light years away, so their little trips to make crop circles and mutilate cows come at a considerable cost. And they cant travel FASTER than the speed of light, because as speed increases, mass increases, and energy to increase speed one more unit increases. So anything with mass that approaches the speed of light, would not only gain infinite mass, it would take more energy than exists in the universe to push it that fast. So that leaves worm holes. To create a wormhole, one must bend space-time. This requires some sort of unimaginable machine that can create gravity from nothing, bend space-time to a specificly chosen point, and then travel thru the hole. Granted they can create this gravity making machine, it would take more enegy to create a wormhole that could fit a single human thru than exists in our galaxy, much less a hole spaceship! But ok, lets say they create it....the amount of gravity that would exist in the wormhole would invariably crush anything that entered it. So, the amount of obstacles the alien civilization would have to overcome to create a wormhole is beyond resonable belief. And we arent even sure they really exist, they are purely theoretical creations by Eistein and Rosen. And to then think that all the aliens would do is come to earth, make crop circles, mutilate cows, and analy prode people, and CRASH in the dessert of New Mexico is outrageous. Remeber the amount of precision and stregth a ship would have to have to enter a wormhole. Now imagine how that same ship full of intelligent creatures beyond our comprehension would do nothing but simply crash in the desert, and have their ship explode. If their ship can withstand the gravity of a wormhole, its not gonna explode. It would just flop on the ground in one piece, it would be stronger than anything we could ever imagine.

4. Finally, think about all the things people say they see alien spaceships do. You hear it all the time, flying thru the air at unimaginable speeds, taking sharp instantaneous 90 degree turns, which no human aircraft could ever do. OK, lets take that example, i read about it and see it on the TV all the time. But lets take it apart. Lets say the spaceship is traveling at twice the speed of sound, 750 mph. And lets say all of a sudden, it take a dramatic 90 degree turn in another direction. Lets say, the turn isnt instantaneous, but it takes 1/10 of a second, it would have to take some amount of time. That sort of maneuver in the atmosphere at that speed would create about 700 Gs. A human dies about 8 or 9 Gs remember. So whatever type of creature is in that spacecraft, would have to withstand nearly 90 times the amount of pressure that would kill us. This is more than any sort of imaginable organic creature could withstand. And from the pictures ive seen ppl draw of aliens, those things would be crushed to bits. And any sort of spacecraft would be torn to shreds trying a maneuver like that. No sort of metal or alloy would withstand any sort of duration of those extreme conditions. And any spacecraft visiting here would spend 99.99% of its time in free space, so WHY design a spacecraft to simply act as a stunt-ship in earths atmosphere, while in free space, its not even a consideration. It is illogical to ALL degrees. Spacecraft and living creatures can simply NOT do the things that people claim they do!

I hope this was informative, if you have any repsonces or questions email me at recebedou@yahoo.com ....thanks

 replies will be listed below this message edit


  Replies 1 - 10 (out of 85 total)

Rajesh Kumar
12/25/2003 5:52:53 AM

Quote by Carl Sagan:

"Interstellar space flight is far beyond our present technical capabilities, but there seem to be no fundamental physical objections to it. It would be rash to preclude, from our present vantage point, the possibility of its development by other civilizations.“

Rajesh
12/25/2003 5:55:51 AM

J. Allen Hynek, Chairman of Astronomy Department at Northwestern University, and pioneer of UFO research. Official scientific consultant to U.S. Air Force project studying UFOs from 1947-1969:

“I have begun to feel that there is a tendency in 20th-century science to forget that there will be a 21st-century science, and indeed, a 30th-century science, from which vantage points our knowledge of the universe may appear quite different. We suffer perhaps, from temporal provincialism, a form of arrogance that has always irritated posterity.”

Rajesh
12/25/2003 5:58:51 AM

The above quote from Carl Sagan is from a very recent article in Scientific American, co-authored by Frank Drake, the orginitor the Drake Equation used to calculate the probability of ET life in the universe, and a pioneer of the SETI program. The reference for the article is:

“The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence”, Scientific American, Jan. 6, 1997

It is on the UFO Evidence website at:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc252.htm

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000B35F3-A4B2-1C59-B882809EC588ED9F&catID=9

Rajesh
12/25/2003 6:34:40 AM

Here is a full scientific paper addressing the question of the feasibility and likelihood of interstellar travel by extraterrestrial civilizations, as it relates to the UFO phenomenon. The full paper is online. (Link for article is below.) It concludes:

"Assessment of the feasibility of interstellar travel indicates that it should be easily accomplished by an advanced society. Neither technical feasibility, nor energetics, economics, and social factors are likely to prevent interstellar travel."

--------------------------

The ETH and the Likelihood of Interstellar Travel

by Jean van Gemert

The (un)likelihood of extraterrestrial visitation is probably one of the most debated aspects of the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis, the answer being an essential component to the validity of the ETH. After all, the assumed unlikeliness of interstellar travel has become the cornerstone of those who resist the ETH as an explanation for UFOs. So, does extraterrestrial visitation necessarily require all sorts of "unlikely" science, or is it possible to accomplish interstellar travel using conventional wisdom?

Full article at:

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/eth.htm

Conclusions

Assessment of the feasibility of interstellar travel indicates that it should be easily accomplished by an advanced society. Arguments, such as that they would not have had enough time to find us yet because of the number of stars to visit, are seen to be implausible [Hart, 1975; Jones 1976, 1995; Hoerner, 1995]. Neither technical feasibility, nor energetics, economics, and social factors are likely to prevent interstellar travel or slow the colonization of the galaxy [Papagiannis op. cit., 1980]. The probabilities appear to be heavily in favor of aliens turning up on our doorstep, which I suspect they may already have.


Rajesh
12/25/2003 8:23:14 AM

Quote by Hermann Oberth, one of the founding fathers of modern rocketry and astronautics:

"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and that they are space ships from another solar system. I think that they possibly are manned by intelligent observers who are members of a race that may have been investigating our earth for centuries.” (Oberth H., "Flying Saucers Come From A Distant World," The American Weekly, October 24, 1954.)

"It is my conclusion that UFOs do exist, are very real, and are spaceships from another or more than one solar system. They are possibly manned by intelligent observers who are members of a race carrying out long-range scientific investigations of our earth for centuries." (UFO News, 1974.)

Rajesh
12/25/2003 8:29:33 AM

With more than 31,000 members, AIAA (American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) is the world's largest professional society devoted to the progress of engineering and science in aviation, space, and defense. The Institute continues to be the principal voice, information resource, and publisher for aerospace engineers, scientists, managers, policymakers, students, and educators.

-------------------------------

American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, UFO Subcommittee (1969?):

"From a scientific and engineering standpoint, it is unacceptable to simply ignore substantial numbers of unexplained observations...

AIAA Committee Looks at UFO Problem, AIAA UFO Subcommittee, Astronautics and Aeronautics, December 1968, p. 12

“The Committee has made a careful examination of the present state of the UFO issue and has concluded that the controversy cannot be resolved without further study in a quantitative scientific manner and that it deserves the attention of the engineering and scientific community.”

Don Tago
12/25/2003 11:51:45 AM

Rajesh....

Let me begin by saying the way you have responded to my evidence is very unprofessional. First of all you are ignoring its validity all together. You cant simply abandon one realm of science because it contridicts your beliefs in another. And the way you try to justify your beliefs is by putting up quotes by people saying THEY believe that aliens have visited earth. You could put up quotes ALL DAY from people who say they believe that aliens have visited earth, meanwhile, i could do the same, and we would be no closer to the truth. I believe the people who claim to see alien space ships in the sky are seeing something, what it is exactly i cant tell you. But i assure the, the possibility that they are aliens is nearly ZERO. If we as humans see a new type of car, or new type of computer, and we dont understand how it works, we dont automatically assume its MAGIC!.....we recognise it as something we dont grasp yet, and attempt to make sense of it rationally. However, right when most people see a light in the sky they dont recognise as an airplane, they automatically assume its a ALIEN SPACESHIP. I mean it HAS to be, look at it.....this is a very ignorant way to operate, and we all should recognise that. Where along the line of rational thought does something go from being possibly an airplane, to definitely a alien spaceship.

To deal with your quotes: All Carl Sagan is saying that interstellar space travel is theoretically possible, not that aliens are rooting thru my trashcan in the backyard. Hynek is simply saying that our understanding of the universe is always changing with new research and discoveries. He is by no means saying aliens are visiting us. As for Gemert, "Neither technical feasibility, nor energetics, economics, and social factors are likely to prevent interstellar travel or slow the colonization of the galaxy." and another quote, "Arguments, such as that they would not have had enough time to find us yet because of the number of stars to visit, are seen to be implausible" HOW does he figure that!!!! I would be amazed to see him explain that to me, and understand how he can so confidently proclaim that. Maybe you dont realize the depth of that claim, but if he could prove that, he would be going against a good deal of legitamate physics and astronomy. Im not even gonna comment on the quotes by Oberth, they are ridiculous. And as for the quote by the AIAA about "substantial number of observations"...Just because a lot of people are claiming to see something, doesnt mean its REAL,....are we suppose to simply accept that Elvis, or Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, or ghosts, or visions of Mother Mary exist simply because so many people say they see them. That is NO kind of evidence, you could use that to prove just about anything. I hope next time you try and refute my evidence, you do so with some more intelligence and self respect.

Rajesh
12/25/2003 1:34:22 PM

Here is the link / URL to the full article by van Gemert, entitled "The ETH and the Likelihood of Interstellar Travel":

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/eth.htm


[[As for Gemert, "Neither technical feasibility, nor energetics, economics, and social factors are likely to prevent interstellar travel or slow the colonization of the galaxy." and another quote, "Arguments, such as that they would not have had enough time to find us yet because of the number of stars to visit, are seen to be implausible" HOW does he figure that!!!! I would be amazed to see him explain that to me, and understand how he can so confidently proclaim that. Maybe you dont realize the depth of that claim, but if he could prove that, he would be going against a good deal of legitamate physics and astronomy. ]]

Don Tago
12/25/2003 6:21:50 PM

Your friends article in itself saves me a good deal of trouble in refuting. He doesnt even mention or take into account the possibility of wormhole. Which is good because that simply leaves near speed of light travel. The first section of his paper is very true. Interstellar travel is not an outrageous idea. It is very possible. However, if not only US, but aliens wanted to do this, they would have to live generations on a spaceship, with the ones who started off the journey most likely not even seeing its finish. Why would an alien civilization travel hundreds or thousands of years to reach us, and do nothing but "mess" with us, as people attest that they do. The final footnote in his paper about colinization potential is sound, but what he describes are aliens colinizing for some sort of necessity, not for amusement. So, under that model, you would expect aliens would show up seeking refuge from the depths of empty space, not simply mutilating cows, and making crop circles.

All Gemert is really using as evidence is the mathmatical models which prove that under very STRICT circumstances, that aliens could potentially reach us by now. And i agree, given the very strict circumstances were all fulfill, i would expect to see aliens, but we dont see any. And given the model, with simply 1000s of systems being populated, we would expect to see some electromagnetic activity from SOME of them. But there is NONE. NO physical evidence to support any advanced civilizations. Imagine our planet...we are sending out more radio waves, and satillite signals every day, and i would only consider us a semi-advanced civilization compared to one which has capabilities of interstellar travel. But SETI returns nothing but the blankness of empty space.

But i must admit, there is definitely a potential at this point for aliens to visit us. But that has not happened, and since we are recieving no radio waves from anywhere in the solar system, it is likely that it will not happen for a long time. And you can not try and say that that fact means nothing, because ANY intelligent civilization would at some point in time recognise the importance of the electromagnetic spectrum. As for his statement that "there is a "galactic club," an established network of old advanced civilizations, and that Earth is under a certain "quarantine." " This is pure nonsense. If we are under a quarintine, why would people be seeing aliens going thru thier garbage, and sticking probes up our ass. They are simply NOT out there looking for us. It is a very HUMAN notion to think that they are. To think that we are so important we would spark the interest of civilizations on the other side of our galaxy. I do not blame people that think this, it is a very romanticized idea in film tv and literature, so it has been impounded in our minds for years. So to look up at the sky and convince yourself you are seeing a UFO is a very awe inspiring thing to do. To think that you have witnessed a contact from alien life would have to be a very fulfilling prospect. But like so many other things, we need to look at the hard truth of things and try and look at things rationally.

To conclude, Gemert's statement that we "have failed to recognize the evidence that there may be extraterrestrials in our own solar system," is simply perposterous. There is a very thin boundry that life can be sustained in this solar system. Venus is too close to the sun, so it is a boiling planet with sulfer clouds and gasoline rain. Mars is too far, with its red ferric soil, and cold thin atmostphere which cannot contain the elements to support life. So the earth is the only planet which lies within the boundry of life. All other planets are too hostile to support any creatures that could evlove to be intelligent. And with that statement Gemert makes, he discredits his entire paper from being taken seroiusly.

anonymous
12/25/2003 6:22:14 PM

Is it possible for people who believe oppose each others' beliefs in totality to learn anything significant or valuable from each other?


  Replies 1 - 10 (out of 85 total)



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