'I don't have enough knowledge on the matter to give it a certain probability. '
I would never ask for 'certian' probabilty...isn't that an oxy-moron?
Again tho you use 'what we know of the universe'...granted we don't know much...thus the need for speculation. That was the intent of my previous post...to agree but to also ask for opinion.
We don't even know the earth that well truth be told. Doesn't stop speculation there.
Keep it to the Solar system...much less the Galaxy...and forget the Universe. How can we begin to think we understand anything about the Universe when we haven't even gotten outside our own solar system much less galaxy? That to me is pure foolishness...speculation...ok...but 'know'...bah!
My favorite analogy for space and life is...oceans/seas and land...it took a tremndous amount of effort and change to conquer land by critters that only knew the ocean.
But Land was seeded from elsewhere. And this sorta goes to my question to AB about glue...why? For hundreds of millions of years life goes on then change...and quick too!
I say 'Need'...for both.
Plants were barely there then the greatest explosion of life that I know of...correct me if I'm wrong...Insects!
And this is grand...90 percent of the earliest models could fly...remember you guys/gals want to go by just the facts...right?
No early proto-insects in the fossil world...actually the oldest if I know right is the Dragonfly...a four winged...hovering machine...that our best efforts to duplicate would be foolish.The single greatest piece of aviation with no rival...the first...hhhmmmmm?
Or maybe the 'glue' was 'Desire'?
WOO WOO 7/14/2004 11:50:01 PM
I don't really know much else about pre-historic times, but one thing I DO know a little about is entomology. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you said, but I must say that most if not all winged insects arose long after plants did. The fossil record attests to this, especially when many extremely old insect fossils are frozen in time, in tree sap.
It is really amazing looking at a piece of amber... and seeing a creature so well preserved, but incredibly ancient... My personal favorites are of termites... so unchanged in millions of years... These definitely arose long after plants, as their primary source of food is decaying wood (for most species). As you probably know, termite reproductives are winged until the start of a colony (unlike ants and colonial wasps/bees, the male does not die upon mating, and can-- along with the queen, live an astonishing 20 or more years! The workers too, are of both sexes, unlike ants and their kin.)
Anyway, to get back to the original post... Even though this is just speculation, it requires some knowledge of the field it belongs to -- knowledge that I lack.
However, I will say: I don't buy the idea the the pyramids were not created by humans. Every attempt at trying to build similar structures was not done very realistically, as we assume that the pyramids required thousands upon thousands of workers. I would also argue that sky scrappers of today are far more masterfully done. Also, the pyramids have (as far as I know) records of their creation. If extraterrestrials were involved, I believe it would be very easy to ascertain. Ofcourse, the pyramids remain one of the great achievements of ancient man... and definitely deserves recognition.
Ice Phoenix 7/15/2004 4:04:49 AM
"However, based on what we know of our universe, there is no reason why life on earth came from other planets. Ofcourse it is possible... but there is no reason to dismiss all knowledge to allow for it, especially when more logical explanations abound."
MOO MOO, not once have you even attempted to explain how "dismissing all knowledge" is required to allow for an alternative hypothesis on any of the growing number of subjects you apply this silly line of reasoning to! "More logical explanations" seems to be your code wording for "what I'm more familiar with".
"Until there is *something* that supports the idea that alien beings seeded earth, or that microbes on a meteor did, I will continue to accept the conventional model, although I will gladly consider any speculation."
The theory of directed panspermia is still, of course, considered a bit wild, but undirected panspermia is a mainstream theory, with no less evidence than the "life from primordial goo" hypothesis. The bottom line is, nobody has a clue how life started!
"Anyway, to get back to the original post... Even though this is just speculation, it requires some knowledge of the field it belongs to -- knowledge that I lack."
That's odd, since that never stopped you on the UFO subject!
"However, I will say: I don't buy the idea the the pyramids were not created by humans. Every attempt at trying to build similar structures was not done very realistically, as we assume that the pyramids required thousands upon thousands of workers. I would also argue that sky scrappers of today are far more masterfully done. Also, the pyramids have (as far as I know) records of their creation. If extraterrestrials were involved, I believe it would be very easy to ascertain. Ofcourse, the pyramids remain one of the great achievements of ancient man... and definitely deserves recognition."
No other buildings have ever come close to the almost impossibe mathematical, geographic & astronomical accuracy of the Giza Pyramids. No reliable records of their creation or purpose exist. For these reasons & others, they occupy a significant place in the forbidden & "alternative science" areas. Unfortunately, the extreme secrecy of operations on the Giza Plateau in recent times only add to their mystery.
tralsace 7/15/2004 7:08:28 AM
'Sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you said, but I must say that most if not all winged insects arose long after plants did. The fossil record attests to this, especially when many extremely old insect fossils are frozen in time, in tree sap. '
Thankyou for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
I'm saying more than that tho. I'm saying first off that there were insects on land when there was mere grasses...much less trees. I say nay to the tree sap...which certianly did catch many insects....et al Jurrassic park.
But since you know about entomology that is good...we can have a lively debate about this.
I'm actually saying that most of all the first insects were winged...ants are late comers as are termites.
And since you do know...then you have to know that dragonflys have been captured in stone dating way before any of the amber stuff.
But i'll give on that...explain if you will the sudden explosion of insects?
The best thoughly doctrine evolutionary books can't help but explain it as an explosion.
There were none...then suddenly there were millions....if not billions.
Also i'd like for you to address the winged thing.
'Long' is a relative term...I'm saying less than 100 million years after plants came to land.
' Also, the pyramids have (as far as I know) records of their creation. If extraterrestrials were involved, I believe it would be very easy to ascertain.'
Why is that?
150 years ago the majority of scholars thought Homers tale of Troy a myth...then a guy with nothing more than the bible and a copy of the Iliad found Troy. No body doubts it to day...even tho they go on creating theories based on the speculations of the mind set that called it a myth!
If extreterrestrials were involved...would they not be called gods by humans?
I don't mean to put words in your mouth but the fact that the ancient egyptians themselves gave credit to the gods...could in a way give credence to thier being et help...but i do hate ya'll thinking everything is et.
But the possiblility that they had outside help is certianly normal.
Point blank...it can't be duplicated.
And i'm not saying not by humans...i'm saying lots of humans with help.
And whatever the reason it was important...but no writtings inside.. unlike all the others?
and on this...this may stir some debate...
'I would also argue that sky scrappers of today are far more masterfully done. '
well lets put that to a test...lets run two 747 full of fuel into the pyramid at Giza ...you really think it will collapse?
Hell i'll put the Empire state building up to the test.
Engineering today is a matter of the game genga...what is the least we have to do/spend...to get it to stand.
Back then...to use the actual egyptian quote...'we build like giants(the old gods)...but finish like jewelers!'
MOO MOO 7/15/2004 2:00:41 PM
I don't know... I'll have to research the subject.
Pyramids are mostly solid, so ofcourse a 747 wouldn't damage it as much as the WTC, or any other sky scraper.
There are records of some of the various work involved... I'll see if I can dig something up. I don't believe any of them stated that gods came down and created the pyramids... it definitely required a lot of human planning, and vast amount of labor, even if extraterrestrial beings were somehow in charge of it.
Yes, they were incredibly advanced... just how advanced their engineering skills were, I don't know. But like trying to build a pyramid today, I'd like to see a 5,000 year old Empire States Building...
With what you say about insects, what are you suggesting? Extraterrestrial involvement? Sorry... I'm missing your point. It is true that most orders of insects have flight, or have remnants of flight, but there are ofcourse, many other more ancient arthropods, which they undoubtably rose from.
tralsace 7/17/2004 7:36:27 PM
On the insects I just got side tracted. I think they are the best example of explosive life growth. As far as i understand it while it looks obvious they would come from early anthrodods I don't believe the evidence is there...it is assumed. That geos go to my point tho that a lot of supposed good hard science is based on assumtions. But I'll leave it alone with the whole evolutionary timeline.
'Yes, they were incredibly advanced... just how advanced their engineering skills were, I don't know. But like trying to build a pyramid today, I'd like to see a 5,000 year old Empire States Building... '
How about an eletron microscope while they are at it?
You actually help make my point by being sort of defensive on comparing thier tech with ours.
If we can duplicate the Empire State building which I have no doubt...and we feel they couldn't...but yet we can't duplicate the Great pyramid at Giza...doesn't that suggest something? We know a lot about thier tech level in 2,500 not all by any means but it doesn't add up. Just as you suggest in your tit-for-tat remark.
I will admit that I'm enfluenced by Hancocks' work in trying to put an earlier date on the pyramids. He suggests 10,600 BC. Which is a huge difference in many ways outside of the obvious on what we think about 'tech' levels of the period vs 2500 bc...it also is big because the desertification(sp) of the sahara/region was not nearly as advanced.
I personally think there is a lot of 'Assumptions' in history, anthropology and the history of science/tech.
One more I'll through out there that is smaller but still cool in how old it is and how long it was lost...I believe the art of making Damascus Steel was lost until the 20th century...but we knew the tech existed along time ago.
You don't have to agree or anything but think if even just from a skeptics point of view...why the hurry or siad pressure to put a 2500bc date on the pyramids at giza...the lack of writings...doesn't that give you a little pause?
Robert 7/23/2004 11:01:41 PM
also woo hoo dont compare the stucture and building of a pyramid to the building of a sky scraper. there are quite afew differences between them and how can you explain all the ufo pictures on the pyramid walls? there are certainly more than 1. also i wanna add the alien looking creatures too. the facts and evidence are there. maybe its your turn to explain why the pictures are there? explain away. ..'..^_^..'..