So, i quote the individual "Skeptic/Believer" from the thread "Can anyone tell me?"
["I think a guy in the disclosure project video said the goverment has catalogued as many as 64 species here is the link to the video"]
This is the point where i have to stop and say WHAT!....So, we are being monitored and studied by an intergalatic coallition of 64 species who are either independently or cooperatively trampling our grain, rooting thru our garbage, putting on beautiful light shows in our New Mexican skies, and rectally examining us. And let me just add, they are doing a knock up job. I mean if 64 species each from their own respective planets could come together like this and do some of the most ridiculous, cryptic, and random things to orchestrate one of the biggest intergalatic jokes of all time, to make their existence suspected but not confirmable for nearly 100 years, i just have to tip my hats to them. I mean gosh, what did you have to pay all the worlds governments of the world to tell the public that they were just seeing weather balloons? Did you pay them in dilithium kryptonite?
Have i illustrated how ridiculous you people sound yet? Sixty four species, that even too me back when i read that! And isnt it funny how 64 planets could develop such similar space craft, i guess thats evolutionary convergence for you! I might guess that in a billion years ONE space craft might make it to earth, but where would it go then? Travel 5000 lys back home? To think that countless species have been here in all their assortments of spacecraft doing all sorts of bizarre feets, but never officially making themselves known except to some lone country bumpkin while hes out in the wilderness of Montana fishing for trout. Youd think if an alien wanted to make themselves known, theyd land like in the middle of NYC and say "greetings" or something. If this was truely intelligent life, and truely able to understand alien planets like ourselves, they would not carry on as people claim they do. If an alien race had the ambition to explore on the other side of the galaxy, do you not think they would choose a more appropriate means of making themselves known, other than simply showing themselves to a few lone nuts who were already UFO fanatics in the first place! And dont give me the whole, "you dont know how aliens will act or what they will do." Any intelligent life, that has the capacity to reason, have abstract thought, ambition to explore, and compassion, would act in this way. Imagine how we as humans would act if we approached an alien planet for the first time, to make contact.
For a civilization to develop interplanetary travel, they would need to generate MASSIVE amount of power for their near light speed space craft, wormhole producing machines, or interdimensional ships. These would require powersources that are foreign to us at this point. If we came into such power sources, may would be torn as to what means to use this new source of energy, as would the civilzation who devised them. That civilization may have the option to use it to destroy its enemies, or use it for their own selfish gain, but they decided to use to to visit us, hypothetically. This demonstrates scientific ambition, compassion, and spectulative thought. I do not include domination, because if they wanted to, they could have done that by now, but they havent. So, if we were visited, it would be by very similar creatures unto ourselves, as far as the spirit goes. But that is not the sort of behavior we have observed at all, therefore it is logical to think that no aliens have visited us. What i have read from accounts of supposed eye witnesses is confused, playful, unwavered aliens who seem to have no real direction or purpose, but simply just linger around, making occasional crop circle, or cow mutilation and fly around our skyies with no real objective but to be seen by oblivious onlookers and fly in curious patterns for them.
Nothing about the way people have explained their behaviour would lead me to think we are dealing with any sort of intelligent being that came in scientific discovery or philanthopy, not even to think that we are dealing with a cooperation of different alien species.
I mention "evolutionary convergence" earlier. This is the idea that very unlike things that have the same function over time will evolve to look similar to each other, despite there being no genetic connection between the two, for instance dolphins and fish, or the Thylacine (Tasmanian Tiger) and canine species. Therefore, like i said above, anything that makes its way here in the pursuit of exploration, which would take unimaginable energy and determination and resources, would show a spirit very similar to ours, being that our spirit is geared in that very direction of exploration and discovery. You would not expect to have interstelar visitors to this planet who simply buzz airplanes, crash in the NM desert, and kill our livestock, because these are not things that we would do. This is not a "for sure" however. There is a possibility that creatures that make it here could have different adendas entirely, but the agendas would have to be equivocal to the amount of trouble it would take to get here. ENERGY! No matter what civilization you go to in the galazy, i dont care WHERE it is or who they are, the limiting factor will always be ENERGY. It is what makes everyone able to do the things they want to do when they live in a technological soceity. It is what we kill for, it is what we invariably die for. Means to get to our planet, like i said, would take unimaginable energy, in some scenarios, more energy than exists in this galaxy (wormholes), other scenarios, more energy than exists in the universe (faster than light travel). Whoever possess machines that can generate this energy would have a tremendous power, a power that is superceded by no other. It would be a very wise society who would chose interstellar exploration to facilitate this power. Because undoubtably many would seek to use to for destruction and conquest of enemies, like many on Earth would, if they ever posessed it. What was the first thing humans did when we harnessed the awesome power of the hydrogen atom, we didnt devise advanced propulsions systems, we made the most deadly weapon man had ever seen. So. we would not be an example of a wise society. So imagine this unimaginably wise society now, and think back to the descriptions of what people see.
I do not doubt that there are being in the galaxy who would do these things people claim they do, but would they have the resources, determination and energy to make it all this way. That is the dilemma! And a civilization who had those 3 things would have to be very close for them to see us as we are now. Remember, for every light year you travel away from our planet, you are seeing a year back in time. So, at this instant, if you look at our planet from 5000 lys away, you would be looking at it 5000 years ago.
Taking into consideration that any habitable planet is most likely 100s to 1000s of lightyears away, aliens would not be seeing the advanced civilization that we are today, they would see us living in caves, or under huts of mud. And if there are as many countless intelligent species out there as people claim (64 is the example ive been using) why would they bother with us. What would make us special out of all the other countless species in the galaxy. NOTHING. We are an exceptionally SMALL planet circling an unexceptional star (the sun is merely average on the scale of most stars), in a very common spiral galaxy which can be found in the millions thruout our universe. Additionally, our planet is covered by 70% hydrogren monodoxide, hydrogen being the most common element in the universe, nearly 99.9%. On this planet over time has evolved simple life which has complexed into larger and more independent life forms which have spread across the oceans and land. This process most likely has occured millions of other times in millions of other planets circling millions of other stars thruout the universe. So again i ask, what makes us special?
Wow, you leave for a week, and then you come back and really lambast us believers.
LOL. I thought I had read or saw somewhere that we had around 18 different types
of entities visiting this earth. I haven't seen them, at least not that I know of, and I was
only repeating what I read. How would ANYONE know this crap?
Scott Johansen 1/12/2004 9:39:30 PM
Sixty four does sound a little unlikely and your point is well taken Don, But you keep talking about the amount of energy it would require to travel here from another planet,Not to mention time. If you mean Energy as being something that burns,or atomic energy as we perceive it I would tend to agree with you. But with advanced technology and possibly even spirituality that could have been in existence for billions of years as an evolving species.isn't it possible to imagine other forms of energy.As i said before .Humans use a very small percentage of their brain.Why ? why would we not just have smaller brains.This does not make evolutional sense in my opinion. If we could harness it control it even subconciously I am certain that finding a perpetual and powerful energy source would be well within our reach. I really believe quantum physics is a key here I just dont' know how mechanicaly. I know you are smarter than I am Don so I am prepared and ready for your vicious retort and I will probably to be completely humiliated.but I really do knowin my gut that these things exist I'm just trying to figure out the whys and whens. There are some very smart and well grounded guys on here that claim to have personally seen them. I believe they are not lying.And the guys I talk to are not looking for recognition thay seem to have that in other aspects of their lives. Still I enjoyed reading your viewpoints. SCOTT
Scott Johansen 1/12/2004 9:50:13 PM
I almost forgot because i began reading your expose and keep cracking up because I can see you talking and it's very comedic".I mean that in a good way".'any way what I was trying to say is that in the quantum universe TIME,Energy Mass and Distance don't mean much. It is the ability to travel through, into and out ofwith control perhaps just by knowing the neighborhood that makes it possible.This is another dimention. That's all
Samual Lee 1/12/2004 10:13:47 PM
You just kind of take the fun out of all this don't you? Or perhaps I should say: You are having fun trying to dissuade others in believing that there could be other world life forms inhabiting space. In any event, keep going! Though I'm new to this group, I have found you entertaining.
I will leave you with this to chew on:
2000+ years ago man developed an intricate way of expressing himself and passing on the knowledge he learned through writing on stone tablets and then on to parchment. Today, man has trouble understanding what those stone tablets and that parchment meant. Some of it makes no sense, what so ever! Do you see where I'm going with this? If Man cannot figure out lines of scripture from 2000 years ago, how is he suppose to understand an Alien race as advanced (as you seem to think they are, if you were to believe in them) as we all seem to believe?
If Man can't figure out what he has done all those years ago, (even though he wrote it all down for us) what are the chances of Man understanding why an alien race comes here to study this planet? If that is what they come here to do.
Why do we keep animals in a zoo? Is it because they are fun to look at? Or could it be that we know these specific animals are dying off because of the ever-increasing population. Or its because the evolutionary chain demands it. Therefore we must preserve what little remains of these beasts?
Maybe that is what we are to these Aliens, beasts! Or perhaps some form of adaptation to their own culture, planted here on earth to study, when they saw fit. Analyzing the outcome, researching what they have done. Of course that throws religion right out the door. And the bible is just a guide these aliens gave man to use when they couldnít find a way out of the mess they would eventually make. Without the bible the world...I would assume... turnís to total chaos. Man would have destroyed itself long ago.
If youíre into Darwinís theory of evolution, you will see that nothing remains a constant. Things change over the course of time. Perhaps these Aliens have dropped by to examine these changes and to find out...WHY?
Scott Johansen 1/12/2004 10:37:57 PM
You mention the bible. I tend to agree with you on the point that the bible although incredibly accurate could only be a general guide and outline to keep chaos from erupting. If the voice of God is inconcievable to man than how could it be translated into words. ?But it is also a message of hope .and whoever created it did the job..It serves it's purpose to a certain extent. KEEP in mind also that it can be used for bad .HOLY WARS ,SPANISH INQUISITIONS etc..Also if these beings were far advanced enough to be able to create and sustain life, live interdimentionally, travel through our skies unseen and unheard ,completely omnicient and were familiar with all aspects of this planet including it's properties and ALL their functions. WHAT WOULD THE DIFFERENCE BE ??? Why would we not call this GOD.
Don Tago 1/16/2004 11:32:29 PM
Does anyone have any further insight into my original post, because it didnt seem to generate much discussion? if not just say so....i would love to hear all of your thoughts on it
DocMoriarty 1/17/2004 8:53:13 AM
A picture comes to my mind:
A scientist researching behaviour of rats under this or that condition standing in his laboratory in front of a big rat cage talking to one of the rats saying : "take me to your leader".
I mean we know that rats have, like most, if not all, species that live together in crowds, a social structure, with kinda leader.
Now do you really think, that any kind of far advanced alien would be greedy on talking to our Mr. Bush - rat ? I guess not really. And even if, they would rather talk to our Mr. Hu Jintao - rat. You don't know that name ? It's the Chinese President, representing a tad over one billion people, ah sorry lab rats, on earth.
But that explains part of why they are usually not landing in the middle of NYC, saying something like "greetings". It's quite unusual that scientists talk to their rats. There are other good reasons too. One for example is fear. On both sides.
Now that we know that there are possibly millions of inhabited planets, it's actually amazing that ONLY 64 races show up. You'd expect quite some more, say tourists from at least 1000-5000 other systems ("Tau Ceti Travel Agency Special Offer: Have an adventure weekend on earth ! 3 Days, full board, for only cr 2,350.-, incl. space port fees and duty free shopping in our north pole base at the end of your journey (good taste prevents me from adding some more sarcastic travel options here)").
Anyway i doubt, that any of these figures published about the number of different races is really accurate. If you'd read before writing, for example John Mack's abduction books, you'd know that in most of these actions there are more than 1 race involved, maybe due to the fact that quite some of them seem to be engineered races for special purposes and for a number of other facts.
Now about the energy problem. You simply don't know by which means they travel. You assume that they use one of the nowadays thinkable ways like wormholes or FTL travel by stretching / compressing spacetime around the space ship (warp drive) which from our current understanding really takes more energy than there is available in the, lets say "visible" part of the universe. All i can say about this is, we don't know, but it's pretty certain that their technology isn't based on concepts we know of today, because then they would obviously not be here.
We have not yet discovered the key to other dimensions, time or space deformation or whatever makes up the base of their long distance travel technology. We can't even explain how magnetism works yet. Your assumption that they are stuck with our "primitive" physics is, for that reason, pretty illegal in reasoning about the topic.
Also for that matter, the amount of energy, and how hard it is to get the source for that energy is not known to us. I guess, a classic UFO is less hard to maintain for them than it is for us to maintain a spaceshuttle. It's more something around the maintenance for a F16. Just a guess.
About the evolutionary convergence of their spacecraft: Funny but most ships built on earth kinda look alike too. Hmmm. Maybe there is even a galactic standardization organization like ANSI or ISO, GSO for example, that standardizes the size of portholes in UFO's, who knows.
Anyway, actually i'm surprised actually by HOW DIFFERENT ufo's actually look. Lets stick with the F16's for a while. I think around 2000 or 2001 more than 4000 F16's have been built. They all kinda look alike.
Now, if like 10% of all US citizens had contact with ufos, which is a commonly used estimate (thats just 25,000,000 lab rats), you'd expect that there would be used one research type craft (or a small number of different ones) over and over and we should have thousands of pics showing the same "F16"-type ufo over and over. Thats not the case, obviously. Actually that means, either we are visited by a way larger number of races than estimated, or the estimated number of contacts is wrong, or there are quite a number of hoaxes among the cases or a completely different explanation. Maybe a bit of all of that.
As for the completely different explanation. What if they actually are not coming from our level of reality at all. In more than one abduction accounts the contectees said, that the aliens can take on shapes at will, they don't really have a body and don't really use technology at all, they just choose their appearance to suit the needs of the victim ... ah contactee. Might explain the individuality of the cases and that there is not that VW-Beetle model or Ford-T-model UFO that you'd expect to see with that many contacts.
In WW II pilots had books that contained the outlines of enemy craft and ships to learn to identify which type of craft they are facing (i think these books had a certain name but can't remember yet). You'd really expect to see at least a number of accounts using the same type of craft. It should be possible to compile such an alien ufo identification book. Although hard to do with these mostly of light consisting types. Just a thought.
Anyway this answer is long enough. As a final point, take a look at
Containing some accounts of policemen, some on and some off duty. I don't think that they all were just victims of their imagination and fantasy, or do you doubt the account of policemen ? If our current technological horizon doesn't permit the phenomenon, it doesn't mean that the phenomenon isn't one, it means that our technological horizon doesn't permit to explain it. Not more, not less.
Ted 2/1/2004 2:12:07 PM
Mr. Tago, I think you bring up a great point and I will try to do my best to give an answer. Now this is only my opinion, but I hope it is a good one. We are not special in any way, shape or form, but we don't need to be. Aliens probably don't care about "special". That's how we think. We think in terms of rank and being more important than other things. That's how humans have been taught. We have a different value system and have learned different things. There really is no way to compare our thinking to anything else in the universe. As far as having determination to travel all this way. How do you know it's determination? It could be any number of reasons. It doesn't have to be limited to determination. Recourses can be easily acquired anywhere in the universe. Energy? Energy can be created by the smallest atoms. It's understanding how it works and how to use it. Obviously we don't have the understanding how to use it to travel through space, but that doesn't mean an alien race more advanced than us doesn't. As far as 64 alien races visiting us goes, that's probably an exaggeration to get people more involved in their cause. Which is what scientists do all the damn time so let's not get into that, ok? So what have we learned today? That we aren't any closer to discovering what UFOs are than we were just a few minutes ago. Open your mind and you'll see the possibilities are endless, you just need to know where to look. I'm sorry Mr. Tago I know this was as scientific or insightful as you would like, but I'm just trying to make a simple point out of a complicated subject. Thanks.
STEVE 2/4/2004 12:19:53 PM
The problem with the debate between all of us as far as "have we been visited" seems to center on the fact that there has been a great deal of misinformation and disinformation spread by the "believers" and the "sceptics".It is very hard to obtain information in this field,and then try to figure out if it is even correct.One thing is for sure.99 percent of all ufo sightings are either complete BS or honest misidentifications by people who mean well but were mistaken.HOWEVER,THERE HAVE BEEN SOME GENUINE SIGHTINGS OVER THE HISTORY OF MANKIND THAT COMPLETELY DEFY EXPLANATION.THEY ARE VERY,VERY ,VERY RARE. FOR INSTANCE, OF THE THOUSANDS OF UFO PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN,ISNT IT SAFE TO SAY THAT AT LEAST A FEW DOZEN OF THEM ARE REAL?BESIDES ,THERE HAVE BEEN TOO MANY SIGHTINGS BY POLICE OFFICERS,MILITARY PEOPLE, AND COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOTS TO SAY THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS LYING OR MISTAKEN.THESE PEOPLE HAVE EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO GAIN BY REPORTING A SIGHTING.ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS EVEN AN AIRPLANE. NOW, WE HAVE SPACESHIPS THAT TRAVEL TO MARS AND ALLOW A ROBOT TO WHEEL OFF THE SHIP,COLLECT SAMPLES OF EVERYTHING,ANALYZE THEM AND SEND THE DATA BACK!!!!!!!WOW, YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT IS PRETTY AMAZING FOR A HUNDRED YEARS PROGRESS. FROM A HORSE AND CHARIOT TO PLANES THAT FLY AT 3 OR 4 TIMES THE SPEED OF SOUND, I AM IN AWE OF THE PROGRESS THAT WE HAVE MADE. IMAGINE AN INTELLIGENCE OR FORM OF LIFE THAT IS ONE MILLION YEARS AHEAD OF US!!!!!!! IMAGINE IF IT WERE 100 MILLION YEARS AHEAD OF US!!!!!!!!HOW COULD SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN GOD NOT BELIEVE IN UFOS? ISNT GOD EITHER SOME SPIRIT, OR BEING,OR INTELLIGENCE,OR CONSCIOUSNESS OF SOME TYPE THAT CAN MANIPULATE SPACE,TIME,GRAVITY AND REALITY ANY WAY IT WANTS? IF SO, THEN I WOULD THINK THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THIS , WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM ACCEPTING UFOS AS A REALITY. ALSO UFOS MAY BE ANY ONE OF A HUNDRED OTHER THINGS BESIDES ALIEN SPACECRAFT. THEY MAY BE FROM ANOTHER TIME ,ANOTHER DIMENSION,ANOTHER REALITY,OR ANOTHER SOMETHING THAT WE DO NOT EVEN HAVE A WORD FOR. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT WE KEEP AN OPEN MIND.WHILE WE DO KNOW THAT SOME VERY RARE CASES ARE REAL UFOS, WE STILL DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.BEST WISHES TO YOU!!!!!!!! SINCERELY-STEVE-BIOCHEMIST,MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST,AND PHYSICIST.