Remembering Past Cases (reconstructed thread)

LJ
3/26/2006 10:26:08 AM Remembering Past Cases

I came across a web site, that briefly lists the 10 best ufo cases that I still find quite
fascinating and wanted to comment on. Old as these cases are, I think they are
worthy of serious review: (if the embedded link doesn't work, just copy and paste it
into your browser)

www.paranetinfo.com/bestcases.html (this url is no longer valid)

To that list, one might also add the sts48 footage as an interesting event. And the
incident at Socorro. And the incident at Malmstrom. And Kecksburg... I'm presuming
that readers are somewhat familiar with these cases so I won't summarize them. If
not, maybe readers will take the time to research each one.

So my comments? A couple.

First point: these cases have continued to defy easy explanation. While it's
true that the lack of a conventional explanation doesn't automatically rule in the
possibility of extraterrestrial origin.. it shouldn't be the basis to so quickly rule out
that same possibility either.. Yet, it often is, no matter how compelling the report or
how highly credible the first-hand witnesses are (even our own military).

Second point: these cases have withstood some pretty good debates
over the years. We shouldn't lose perspective just because of their age. To some
extent, I actually believe that those who really do have an inside track to what's
going on, heavily rely upon the passage of time as the most effective approach to
events of this magnitude.

We all recognize that memories become blurred over time and that key witnesses
often pass on.. and technologies change.. after a few dozen years or so, it
becomes much more difficult to revisit past cases. If you muddy the waters with
a few assinine explanations (from people in prominent positions) and, if you toss
in a few worldly distractions (i.e. the fuel shortage, wars, terrorism, politics, etc..),
you can pretty well keep people pacified.. and focused on more pressing issues that
affect them directly.

Third point: I think there is at least some reasonable basis for the belief that
conspiracy theories and coverups exist for one reason or another. While I don't buy
into most, one can't deny that some official explanations to ufo events, are at the
least, contradictory and terribly poor. For example, incidents at Malmstrom and
Bentwaters involved some highly sensitive military hardware.. yet, the media
(and the public) readily accepted the line that nothing of defense interest
occurred..... Realistically, any reasonable person would have to conceed
that the implications suggest that ONLY the reverse could be true.

All of these past cases shouldn't be written off as misid's, fabrications or delusion...
or just flat out forgotten about. They may be old, but they continue to make a
reasonable case for considering the extraterrestrial possibility in the analysis.

LJ

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C

3/27/2006 11:02:19 AM

i have to wonder what the basis was for what cases made it to this list. Why is Socorro not included? A craft accompanied by occupants is seen by a credible witness, and physical trace evidence found. A case like that should have surely
been on the list if not at least held above the betty and barney hill case.

i cant exactly explain why but i've never really been all that impressed with the
Hill case. maybe it;s the whole concept of details coming out only after hypnosis,
i don't like that.

======================================================

LJ

3/27/2006 5:19:26 PM

C..

Agreed; if you recall, myself and Paradox went round and round on that one
(Socorro). While we did have some good constructive exchanges, I don't think I'd
want to do that all over again..lol..

I don't know why Socorro wasn't included on that particular list.. I'm sure there's
probably summary lists out there.. no big deal however, as this one happened to
include examples of cases that I felt supported leaving the door open to the
extraterrestrial possibilities.

Of course, I wouldn't go so far to suggest that all of these past cases (including
the ones I also mentioned that weren't on the list) sufficiently support the
extraterrestrial theory, but a couple of them make that option a little more
plausible.. (.i.e. The Coyne case is an excellent example..).

I'm not overly receptive to many of the abduction scenarios either.. and, I've hotly
debated the Hill case too, if you remember. I suppose that one could go either
way.. ..but in earlier years, I really dug thoroughly through that one. And Stanton
Friedman's arguments (over time), swayed me a little too. So, I tended to lend a
little more weight in the direction of Betty Hill's account (which she remained
steadfast and consistent with, right up until her passing).

But, you do make a good point about the hypnosis aspects.. it's not an entirely
reliable tool (not then, or now) so I have to keep that in mind.


LJ

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DEATH eVADER

3/28/2006 2:39:07 PM

I would of put the Cash/Landrum case at number 1, followed by the Hill''s.

Mainly because the Cash/Landrum case is more interesting

=================================================

LJ

3/28/2006 6:55:08 PM

Thanks for chipping in Death eVader..

I wasn't so much really trying to place any emphasis on the order by which cases
should be listed.. actually, I prefer not to do that myself , as each one is somewhat
unique.. But, they do have something in common and I use them all when I confront
those who steadfastly refuse to at least consider the possibility of extraterrestrial
origin, when all else has been considered..

My point here is that Just because this collection of cases gets older by the day,
it's too darn convenient to forget about them or sweep them under the rug..

I'd like to re-emphasize too that the incidents at Malmstrom, Bentwaters and
Socorro are also good candidates to add to the list.. even the sts48 footage
debate..

It's often brought up that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.. well,
I understand this and support it as well.. BUT, this doesn't justify completely
ignoring the more complex and compelling case records, where, despite the
absence of acceptable proof, the witnesses did act in a reasonable manner.
Yet, they are penalized (to some extent), for not having acquired a calling card.

Sorry for getting carried away..

LJ

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ICBM

3/29/2006 6:44:24 AM

The Belgium Triangle case is the most interesting to myself. Breaking the speed
of sound without creating a sonic boom is a feat in itself. It would almost suggest
that the craft wasn't fully in our dimension. Who knows...... It's possible, but
unlikely, it was a military craft; not necessarily USAF technology either. With the
invention of the atomic bomb, science has become the leading force in military weoponry and technology. I try to take this into consideration when thinking of
UFO technology. Unravelling the secrets of atomic structure has been ongoing
for 50+ years. It's really hard to say what has been discovered. The public
would not be informed of any high value discoveries, because information
(advanced propulsion?) is an advantage over "the enemy".

========================================================

LJ

3/29/2006 7:29:05 AM

ICBM..

Certainly, the Belgium case is yet another good example, although I'm still
divided on that one. I just can't form a comfortable opinion either way on it.

But I'm receptive to your comment about the sonic boom effect. Not sure I can
recall where I read discussions that raised this issue.. I'm thinking it was part
of the post Nellis video incident discussions (the big debate on that video was
whether or not the footage was actually smuggled out as claimed or if it was
part of some smokescreen). But it was theorized that advanced propulsion
systems could negate the effects of sonic booms.. there were some really
interesting theories put forth in this regard.. but again, they're all just theoretical.

If I really had to embrace one of the cases on the list, I'd be tempted to go with
the Coyne helicopter case.. here, you have hardware interacting with hardware
in a face-to-face encounter that included exceptional witnesses.

While I can understand the argument that demands 'show me the proof' , my
response here would go to the actions of the pilot. This was a random chance
encounter (aren't they all?), for which there was no advanced expectations.
The pilot's priority was to regain control of his helicopter, protect himself and
crew, and get back down to regain a sense of reality and composure. So the
ultimate question becomes 'what the hell was he supposed to do to acquire
acceptable proof?' when he and his crew were observing something that
common sense says can't happen?

So, the tendency to simply brush all these excellent cases aside due to their age
is questionable. Those who question the ufo phenom have to deal with these
events on a case-by-case basis. It's just too nice of a shortcut to forego any
lengthy and thorough investigation to simply fall back on the old argument that
there's isn't any acceptable proof. That's what drives my interest in this.

Sorry.. I've rambled on again..

LJ

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ICBM

3/29/2006 8:35:07 AM

LJ:

The case you speak of; is this the one where the object is cigar shaped and a
laser was directed at the helicopter?

Also, you wouldn't think that sonic booms could be eliminated with the increase of
aerodynamics could it? I am not sure how much more aerodynamic you could get
over an SR-71BlackBird. My point is, that it seems when physical objects obtain a
speed in excess of sound, they usually emit a sonic boom, no matter how
stream-lined they are. On the otherhand, I am open minded to the idea that, it may
be possible with enough R&D, to fix this "problem". (emitting a boom)

========================================================

LJ

3/29/2006 10:57:41 AM

ICBM..

Yes, as I recall, the object in the Coyne helicopter case involved a dull looking
cigar type shape (quite large).. I think Coyne referenced a green light (rather than
a laser) that filled the inside of the helicopter.. and the helicopter somehow
ascended although its controls were set to descend..

I know what you're saying, about how difficult it would be to address sonic
booms through aerodynamics.. wish I could locate those discussions that I
referred to.. I was sort of paraphrasing from memory, but they more or less got
into how resistance could be controlled and displaced without the side effects.. but,
it was entirely conjecture.

I admire the technology behind the sr71 as well; in some ways, I think it was well
ahead of its time too.. marvelous technology. Even today, weapons can achieve
incredible speeds that weren't thought possible before.. so, I don't believe that this
need for speed will diminish anytime soon and factors such as resistance, airflow,
etc.. drive the desire for more.

Now whether something of revolutionary design might be the focus of secret plans
behind closed doors, who can tell.. we've got enough mysteries to contend with as
it is.. it's just my opinion that our present understanding of aerodynamics doesn't
represent what may be possible.. or already been achieved..

If the most basic terms, on our current aircraft for example, we're always
incorporating improvements to reduce drag, increase speed and whatever, years
after initial development. There's just been too many good reports (i.e. Malmstrom,
Bentwaters, etc.) where objects accelerated at speeds that should have resulted
in a boom or two (according to our understanding of aerodynamics), but did
not.. so, it does at least imply that something very advanced was in use
(that our present thinking doesn't consider). This is a possibility that I must
leave open.

LJ

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C
3/31/2006 3:12:26 PM
Imagine for a moment that these triangles really do belong to some countries'
military. Now imagine that everyone 'thinks' they belong to ET's. Wouldn't that
country be free to do anything it wanted with these crafts and not have to
worry about being held accountable? This is something i try to keep in mind.

====================================================

LJ

3/31/2006 3:49:30 PM

C..

Well, presuming that some of these are of terrestrial design, it might suggest
several things..

..right off, it would reaffirm that there is/was a huge black budget that's been
used to develop, test and conceal some rather monumental devices.. even from
those who provide oversight accountability.

It might also suggest that the ufo issue indeed has/was being used as a
smokescreen to divert suspicion or to delay (or prevent) any
unintended/premature admissions of origin..

And what of the technology itself?.. almost certainly, there'd be reason to doubt
whether we could develop something along those lines alone, without the benefit
of reverse engineering or 'outside' assistance.. either way, it would point to an
alien contribution.

That's why I'm still kinda iffy on whether or not the idea of terrestrial experimental
is a valid possibiliy. They would have to be fail-safe so that usage over populated
was worth the risk..

I'm sure there's a whole list of other implications, as well, if we were to theorize that
these were of terrestrial design.. the owner would possess superiority in many
areas and would have to go to extremes to keep adversaries from acquiring it.

Wow, just speculating about the implications can become pretty complex. It
wouldn't prove anything, but makes for interesting reading.. and we haven't really
got into the other side of things (that what if these represent extraterrestrial origin.. why then, this new design over the traditional saucer type that we're
accustomed to?).


LJ
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DEATH eVADER

3/31/2006 3:52:31 PM

Yeah, the black triangles where seen in a town close to here, on two occasions. Nobody ever saw them again. The fact that I live in a town where aerospace engineering is the norm, I would say that the craft wasn't normal, otherwisae it
would of been seen more.

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mulder_wannabe

4/5/2006 7:32:55 AM

No doubt in my mind, the Bentwaters case IS the most significant case in ufology history.

I`ve had the pleasure of knowing many high ranking DOD officers and have found
them all to be of very high moral standing and strictly professional. I see no reason
not to believe the Lt. Col. who recorded the events of that night in Dec almost 30
years ago. A fascinating case indeed!!

A runner-up might be the case at Minot AFB (Not listed in this top 10).

=================================================


LJ

4/5/2006 12:45:12 PM

mulder_wannabe..

I'm beginning to wonder if we could really maintain a good top-10 list of the best
cases, as there are quite a few more that we can keep on mentioning.. perhaps
the only important thing here is that we don't forget those cases, just because
they've become yesterday's news..

When you really get into the Bentwaters matter, and then the Coyne helicopter
case.. .. and the case at Minot (as you mentioned), and the Malmstrom affair
(about a year earlier I think), there's little doubt that the military establishment has
also been witness to the same extraordinary things that the general public has
eported. To me, it's almost gets ridiculous when the official line becomes
'nothing of defense significance occurred when obviously, only the reverse of
this posturing could reasonably be true. Yet, this line was used in the Bentwaters
matter and also in the Malmstrom ufo incident, amongst others. Wake-up people..

Back to Bentwaters though, I recall a long time back, that one of the more
outspoken debunkers here involved a James McGaha.. I don't know whether
you're familiar with him, off the top of your head, but even though he wasn't a
first-hand witness to the events of Bentwaters, his explanation was that the
misidentifications that took place were a result of the light house (some
distance away) and/or a result of scintillation (a fancy way of saying that visual
observations aren't reliable).

McGaha was a retired Air Force Major, if I recall, who held a degree in Astronomy
(or some such related field).. one of his biggest arguments has always been that
ufos can't possibly exist because of this, that or some other narrow argument. He
couldn't explain how the light house theory didn't pose any sort of problem prior to
or after the Bentwaters affair.. yet, he grasped on to that theory as being one of
his more likely solutions (and scintillation as well to explain everything else).

Ultimately, the Ministry of Defense put the frosting on the cake when they took the
position that nothing of defense interest occurred.. yeah right. I guess they believe
that the public is totally gullible.

And still further, if memory still serves, Stanton Friedman also at one time confronted
McGaha's 'ufos can't exist' arguments.. and made those arguments look utterly
ridiculous.


LJ

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mulder_wannabe

4/6/2006 1:34:17 AM

LJ:

You`ve hit the nail on the head with your description of the military`s OFFICIAL response. When not blatantly practicing obfuscation, they tend to employ another
common military tactic: understate or marginally illuminate the real issue. You may
be familiar with the statement, "...does not represent a threat to national security".
They drag that one out when they`ve exhausted all other means of cover-up.
As if to say, "Don`t worry simple-minded citizens, we`re the government and
we`re telling you it`s all ok".

One of the reasons I feel the Bentwaters case is so significant is that Lt. Col.
Halt (The deputy base commander or executive officer, if you will) recorded his
observations of the phenomenon in real time. It`s raw, it`s live, it`s uncontaminated
by any official "militaryspeak". Furthermore, he submitted an official report up
the chain-of-command, fully expecting SOME response . Amazingly, there was
silence.

Now, keep in mind, this base was of very critical strategic importance during the
cold war. The mere suggestion of some disruption of normal operations would undoubtedly be met with a flury of activity, inevitable reports and follow-ups
(I know this from personal experience!) . With that in mind, you undertsand why
the complete lack of apparent interest generated by Lt Col. Halt`s report, in reality, speaks volumes.

Perhaps one day we`ll get to the bottom of this controversy, but I`m not holding
out any real hope of it

===================================================

LJ

4/6/2006 7:06:24 AM

mulder_wannabe:

Good comments; thanks. It's certainly refreshing to read that others are familiar
with cases like Bentwaters who also note the same discrepancy with the 'official'
position when weighed against the compelling nature of the facts..

I felt back then (and still do today) that the official position is a glaring contradiction..
And the lack of any official response to Halt's memorandum, as you point out, does
speak for itself.. but isn't a surprise or something new.

Maybe it's just my bias speaking, but the common course of action seems to be to
avoid throwing any fuel on the fire.. but instead, let the passage of time heal the
wounds (undoubtedly, memories and facts become blurred as time and continuous
debate takes its toll).



LJ

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C

4/7/2006 1:41:58 PM

LJ, you mentioned you thoroughly dug through the Hill case... maybe you could
share a little bit about what you found. Some of the shit im reading about it is raising
an eyebrow. The whole thing is curious and i want to start putting the chain of
events under the microscope.

"Also present at this interview was Major James MacDonald, a former Air Force
Intelligence officer and close friend of the Hills. It was he who first suggested
hypnosis to recover their memory of the missing time period."

wtf is that about??? Who is Major MacDonald and what is known about him?

====================================================

LJ

4/7/2006 4:41:38 PM

C..

It's been quite awhile, so I'd have to try to recall what I can. So, don't hold me to
any high standards of exactness at this late date..

Don't know how to briefly summarize, but..

The event reportedly took place in mid to late 1961. They could not account for
several hours of time concurrent with returning from a trip.

I believe your quote is correct.. MacDonald was an Air Force officer with whom
the Hills were fairly close friends with.. I think he was retired by then, but I'd have
to re-research that. He did have an intel background. At any rate, he more or less
suggested the Hills seek hypnosis and they ultimately did. But I can't recall all the
details, dates and so forth. I'd have to bring myself up-to-date again.

In essence, there was a Dr. Simon who performed the hypnosis sessions on the
Hills (quite a few). While you and I would agree that hypnosis isn't exactly a
reliable tool, I think it was Simon's conclusion that what the Hills reported actually
did occur. Of course, this is hardly acceptable as proof.

The Hills more or less were convinced that they were the first humans to be
abducted; that was one of the more minor points where I disagree with them.
While I truly believe that some reports are quite compelling in this regard, including
the Hills', I'm not so sure it's as wide spread as all the quoted numbers make them
out to be. However, since ufo sightings have such a considerable history, it almost
doesn't make sense that the Hills were the first or only human objects of study.

The Hill case was basically the first case to draw so much attention from the
media.

There were aspects of their account that I found fascinating (i.e. the denture
issue) and if you remember, I went round and round with Paradox over this.. hope
this helps a wee bit.. there may be much more info about MacDonald here on this
site, but I haven't checked that out yet. Guess we both ought to..


LJ

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mulder_wannabe

4/8/2006 4:22:09 AM

From my very cursory investigation, I learned that Maj. James McDonald was an
intelligence officer on active duty, stationed at Pease AFB. He was one of a number
of close friends of Barney Hill`s from the AFB that were on active duty or employed
by DOD.

I also learned something else of interest (for me , at least). The only official
investigation into their sighting was conducted by Major Paul Henderson. He spoke
to the Hills a few hours after their encounter. Two years later, Project Bluebook concluded there was insufficient evidence to determine the cause of their
sighting. Why the delay?

====================================================


Krafty

3/30/2006 10:28:46 PM

In terms of military black aircraft - check out this site. I don't know if you've
seen it already (probably) , but I thought it was pretty cool

http://seekers.100megs6.com/UFOManTR-3B.htm

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LJ

3/31/2006 6:41:56 AM

Krafty..

No, I hadn't reviewed that particular link previously (but I am going to..thanks).

This is another of those iffy issues (my personal view) and I'm simply going to
maintain a more noncomitted type of view.. I have mixed impressions..

So far, I've held open the possibility that some sightings were attributable to
experimental craft, while other cases (at least on the surface), don't exactly
seem to fit into that for one reason or another. lol, another puzzle..

Basically, the reason I'm still up in the air, so to speak, is over two thoughts..

1) I doubt that experimental craft would be tested/used over populated areas, due
to the obvious and potential consequences related to an unexpected failure,etc...
..plus, you wouldn't want to perform any unnecessary advertising for all to see.

and 2), how do I address the significance of the traditional saucer design
(which has been the most commonly reported design for literally thousands
of years) versus this newer design.. is there any signficance? I simply don't
know how to approach this.

It's really interesting to speculate on this one..


LJ

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ONtheWAYout

4/8/2006 8:03:55 AM

mulder:

It takes 5 years in this country for the government to type a 2 sentence
instruction for a kid to cross the street.

OUT

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C

4/8/2006 8:56:59 AM

The Hill case may not be the first abduction, but it is the first time this type of alien activity has been documented is it not? That is what makes it significant.

Wouldn't it be true that Major MacDonald would only suggest the use of hypnosis
if he really thought there would be something to be found? Was MacDonald's
interest in this matter born out of his friendship with the Hills or out of his duty as
an intelligence officer? Would a Major in airforce intelligence during the 1950's be someone who might know a little more than most about the UFO/ET phenomenon?

=====================================================

LJ

4/8/2006 1:51:13 PM

C..

Again, I'm relying strictly on what I can recall.. MacDonald was fairly open-minded
(that is, he didn't discount life existing elsewhere).. although back then, people in
uniform weren't supposed to publicly talk about such things, especially flying
saucers. Cautiously open, is what I would say.

You gotta remember the mindset of the media (and the populace) back in those
days.. take the Washington 1952 flap for example, and the utterly ridiculous
explanations that were put out to pacify everyone. Today, those sort of
explanations would be eaten alive by most.. back then, those explanations were
simply accepted as fact. Period. Still true in the early 60's.

Even back then tho, hypnotherapy was somewhat fashionable and was being
used with amnesia cases. Somewhere, I recall where MacDonald either
encouraged or suggested the Hills go that route.. as a result of attending or
listening to their accounts of their missing time. I'm not sure how they wound up
going to Dr. Simon, who conducted the hypnosis.

Again, I think MacDonald was retired at the time and simply provided an alternative
for the Hills (by suggesting hypnosis) and wasn't acting with some ulterior motive
as if there was some sort of conspiracy (because he had worked in intel)..

Don't hold me to the rails here, but I'm thinking that emphasis and media interest on
the Hills' case didn't really peak until some years later, mid 60's I think.. off the top
of my head, I'm thinking that the events of Exeter (mid 60's) prompted many to
reflect back to what the Hills reported earlier.. and that brings to mind John Fuller,
who wrote a book on the case. I read one of them at the time (when I was a wee
bit younger).

Interesting, to compare the Hills abduction account with those of more recent
times... ..no doubt, some sort of cursory clinical exam takes place, but the more
recent accounts seem to be more disturbing and traumatic, for whatever
reason... and that's where the similarities end.

There hasn't been any similar accounts to the Hill's and that's probably the basis
that some use to conclude that it's all baloney.. I don't however..


LJ

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LJ

4/9/2006 4:01:58 PM

C:

Just wanted to add a few more comments about why I tend to accept the Hill case
as legit, since you've got me started about it (lol).. ..guess it's just too darn
interesting..

1) Both Betty and Barney participated in numerous hypnosis sessions, separate
from one another. They were not privy to what one another revealed during these
sessions. Only later, when the sessions were compared, it was determined that
they were consistent in their stories, essentially revealing the same things. Dr.
Simon (who conducted the hypnosis), arrived at the conclusion that the Hills were
not simply concocting some bizaare tale.

2) The Hills had nothing to gain by reporting their sighting, loss of time and
subsequent hypnosis sessions. They consistently maintained what they believed
right up to their passing away. Betty never seemed to waver from her convictions.
I also have to consider the possibility that their various medical issues (anxiety,
ulcers) resulted from or were related to their experience.

3) Of all the people who have had opportunity to discuss the case with them at
length, few, if any that I'm aware of, have concluded that the Hills were 'nut cases'..

4) Somewhere along the line, I believe Betty had taken and passed one or more
polygraph tests which did suggest that she was truthful in her accounts. Of
course, this isn't sufficient as proof, but is worth noting. None of those, that I'm
aware of, were self sponsored tests to where she could establish rules for
questioning (as was apparent with Ed Walters over the Gulf Breeze incidents).

I don't know of any other well publicized case where such extensive communication
has been reported between the abductee and the abductors as was reported by
Betty Hill.

While the Hill case does include a clinical exam that seems to common to most all
abduction claims, it differs with respect to the interaction, as I've mentioned.. and
there isn't any dominating references to paralysis, as many claims contain. In fact,
there's even a hint of humor and/or compassion in Betty's understanding of the
exchange.

No doubt, the aliens in the Hill case had an agenda, were obviously curious and
knew what they were doing.. to be able to coax the Hills on board their craft, they
likely had to exercise some form of control, either through fear, telepathy or
through some other means.. but I don't recall anything about paralysis..

So, if you consider the differences between the Hill case and today's claims, as
related to alien appearance, alien conduct and technique, does this mean that we
should write off the Hill case simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of how
modern claims portray that same scenario? Or because hypnosis isn't totally
reliable? I don't think so.

Myself, I'm not willing to so quickly accept most claims because they simply haven't
been time tested with even the most half hearted investigations by anyone (pro or
con).. the Hill case has been. I might be tempted tho, to revisit some past cases
that might revise my opinion one way or another, like the Allagash case.. but most
others, I'm not too convinced.

It's hard for me to ignore the Hill case simply because of the alleged conversations
that took place.. they seem reasonable, believable and plausible enough to me.
Generally, I'm impressed with the sincerity of Betty Hill. While most seem to base
their opinions of this case around the star map issue, I'm more or less fascinated
with the other smaller details of Betty's story (i.e. the denture reference)..
..insignificant to most, but not likely something Betty would simply dream up.

As I mentioned in another post, to me it just isn't likely that the Hill's were the first
human subjects of study (as Betty presumed). If one is willing to consider that this
event could have occurred, then surely similar events have taken place many times
over, prior to and afterwards. One random sampling simply wouldn't be sufficient.

Last, I have to consider the overall conduct of the Hills and what they went
through, compared with more trendy abduction claims of recent years. Neither of
the Hills sought public attention.

Today, you can quickly form reasonable impressions based upon the conduct
of the person making a claim.. and their willingness to anticipate and confront
the consequences of going public..

Once a claim is made and out in the open, I kinda look for resistance to any hint of
challenge and/or questioning. And how and by what means it came to light.

In the Hills case, I didn't see a pattern where they beat the drums about the world's
skeptics and debunkers.. they attempted to address their story.. they didn't seem
to do the tap dance that some claims of today do. And most importantly, they
didn't play the familiar tune that 'they don't have to subject themselves to anyone
or anything..' once the claim got into the spotlight.

I'm reasonably sure that the Hills endured some difficult challenges of criticism,
ridicule and debate for quite a long time.


LJ

===============================================


C

4/9/2006 6:03:38 PM

I agree with you that the differences in the Hill case with other abduction claims or
with any alien encounter for that matter... should not be reason to write it off. In
fact, I welcome these differences because i'm not one to believe that the UFO / ET
phenom is anything simple or something that can be assigned to just one level of experience / encounter anyway.

But with that said, my interest in the Hill case isn't based on finding out whether or
not the case is a hoax or legit. What i want to do is really pick it apart and examine
the events more closely to see if there is anything else to be found. I already
mentioned that there were some things about this case that i found curious and
rather peculiar. The involvment of a 1950's airforce intelligence officer being the
main one. Also i read somewhere that days after the encounter with the UFO and before the hypnosis, Beatty experienced several days of dreams about being abducted... that is a strange and significant aspect for several reasons.

There's a lot more i want to say and comment on here... but The Sopranos is
starting. I appreciate your time invested on this LJ.

===================================================

LJ

4/9/2006 6:48:01 PM

C:

Ok, will be brief here.. have to run myself..

No doubt, each and every possible pebble has and will be explored to try to
explain this case either for or against their abduction scenario. I might disagree
with you slightly in that your wanting want to pick it apart in any respect, would
have to be driven by one of those pro or con preferences.. but I'm not objecting.

.. As I recall, dreams and even an episode of I think it was 'Outer Limits' (or some
other such show or movie) was introduced as the source(s) of Betty's dreams..
I think it was also alleged that she read a book or several books that contributed to
these dreams, as well. Those theories have gone on and on as well, but nothing
ever really explained what happened to the missing time that the Hills maintained
that they lost. So how far can the theories go? I don't know..

No solution other than one's own interpretation. This is one of those unresolved
things where I don't think it's possible to get at whatever the real truth is.. there's
just too much debate over the use of hypnosis, Betty and Barney having dreams,
etc.. and I can't argue with some of those debates (especially the hypnosis
aspects).

In short, Simon did conclude that the Hills were being truthful (although I don't
think he himself bought into a ufo event). But this one still tugs at me as being a
contender for the real deal (at least over some of the more recent claims).


LJ

==================================================


C

4/9/2006 11:00:06 PM

ehhh i don't know... i guess i just have this feeling that i shouldn't accept the Hill
case as what it appears to be on the surface. A lot of elements seem fishy and
the whole thing could very well be disinformation.

===================================================

mulder_wannabe

4/10/2006 12:42:01 AM

Keep in mind, The Hills weren`t hypnotised until 2 years after the incident. Some
have suggested that gave them ample time to confabulate, refine and commit to memory, similar accounts of the night in question. Also of note was Barney`s description of the aliens. He described them as looking like "German Nazis" with
shiney jackets and a scarf around the neck. During his hypnosis session, he
described their eyes as very dark and swept back around the head. That would
be identical to the aliens portrayed in the Outer Limits episode that he watched just
a few days prior to being hypnotised. Speaking as a person who watched many
Outer Limits episodes (and specifically the episode mentioned), I can personally
attest to how frightening those shows could be. I`ve no doubt, they affected
many of my dreams as well! My point being, the memory works in very
mysterious ways.

However, there are many aspects to this story that are intriguing. The small circles
left on the Hill`s car was unexplained. A UFO was also tracked on radar at Pease
AFB at the exact time the Hills alleged their abduction occured. Betty Hill recounted a "large needle being inserted through her navel"--a procedure commonly used
today to extract ova but unheard of in those times.

Frankly, it all boils down to one thing: the Hills and their credibility. From all the
accounts I`ve read regarding the case, the Hills were a well-liked couple, who
were not known to fabricate exotic stories and were generally thought of as trust-worthy and reliable. One would have to ask why an inter-racial couple of that time period in this country (the USA), would WANT to bring such undue attention on themselves. According to other inter-racial couples/families I`ve talked to, who
lived during or near that time, attention was the last thing they craved.

================================================

C

4/10/2006 2:23:47 AM

You could be right about the Hills, wannabe, and my insinuation isn't so much that
the Hills would perpetuate a hoax. My insinuation is that the whole incident may not completely be what it appears to be... perhaps even to the Hills. But i do think there
is something going on here. This is why i need examine the case more closely. It's
just that already in my mind, there are a few things that hurt the extra-terrestrial explanation for this one.

=================================================

Celestian Falcon

4/10/2006 9:36:17 AM

I am not too familiar with Sorocco? However, I will put the Betty Hill case at or near
the top of the list! Why? Because Betty and Barbey Hill first had a close encounter
with a UFO. Soon afterwords they had the flashbacks like we had about the extraterrestrials. It was not until after the episodes that the Hills sought out
hypnosis experts to validify their story. Furhter analysis of the Hill case uncovered consistent facts about extraterrestrials that actually led to two break throughs.
One is the optical needle invented because of abductee claims like Betty Hill
brought to science. The other is the star map that was shown to Betty Hill
depicting the Zeta-Retuculi star system.

I also learned yesterday on coast to coast am website that JFK was assassinated
by three members of his own party to keep him shut up over the ongoing UFO
crisis at that time. JFK was to make a public address speech to the nation just one week after his assassination! JFK and Marilyn Monroe may have been abducted by extraterrestrials just like Betty and Barney Hill! Thier close encounter incident closely resembles the Betty and Baqrney Hill incidents at close proximitey in contact range
of a grounding UFO. After the JFK/Monroe incident, Monroe was murdered and
JFK got assassinated! But before this time and after the UFO incident, JFK was
visted by a grey extraterrestrial alien at the White House balcony. The ET spoke
to JFK and told him they were from a Federation of Worlds and they had found the Earth to be compatible with their species. The alien gave JFK a message that the
aliens had come to Earth to bring it into the Federation of Worlds because it was compatible to them. Then they alien warned JFK to stop the Earth's way of wide
spread diseases, pollution and wars or elese the aliens may not be able to assist
the world as they have come here to do. We may never know what the original
speech was goping to be on the UFO crisis by JFK, but we can sure put this
contact with aliens at the top of the list in the surety that contact has been made between aliens and the White House!

And one of the greatest stories you will ever read about is my own! As I have
been given the same message by grey extraterrestrials to give back to my
government as the same message that was given to JFK.

===================================================

mulder_wannabe
4/10/2006 9:55:59 AM
fascinating stuff, CF. Do you think our current president is in touch with ETs?
I also wonder if they have advised him or presented him with a glimpse of potential future reality.

==================================================

Celestian Falcon

4/10/2006 10:46:47 AM

mulder:

Both President Bush Senior and President Bush Junior are the most informed Presidents of the World on the UFO subject! I know this through interviews that
were conducted with these Presidents! I also know that the FBI is the leading branch for all UFO investigations. This has also been confrimed on a recent UFO
documentary seen last week on the Histroy Channel. I know it seems harsh and profound but it gets scarier. Some might argue it seems to simple but these are
the harsh and cold facts! It was the FBI that intervened a major news network
and was stopped from airing a video segment of a captured cigar shaped UFO
caught on camera. In saying all this, it is President GWB who has been histroically
and politaclly tied to the FBI But, President GWB and Vice President Dick Cheney
have signed an oath not to speak about what they have been shown and
informed of.

In a interview given to President Bush Senior he stated that the public did not "know
the half of it" when it comes to UFOs. IN another recent interview given to Vice President Dick Cheney, he stated that what the government does know of ET's existance and UFOs that that infornmation will remain as top secret and highly classified and will not be released to any public. Supposedly Bill Clinton had his
own experience. He wanted the FBI to release all top secret UFO information to
him but the government held back information from him. Supposedly Bill Clinton was taken to an underground UFO base where he was escorted down and was able
to see a captured extraterrestrial. What he saw scared the living hell out of him! Perhaps this is why he was denied top secret information because he could not
handle the hard cold facts? And what President Bill Clinton did next was issue a
"Blue-Light" giving orders for the Air Force to shoot down any unkown aircraft
or UFO. I have heard that since President Bush has come into office he has not reversed this order given by Bill Clinton and done nothing to stop it.

About four years ago I had a interview on the Internet with a individual from the
military who told me he had been assigned special missions involving ETs and ET technology. What he described a drew for me was pretty scary to say the least.
He drew sphercial and saucer spaceships and told me that they had flown with
them to their planets. He confirmed to me what I already have been informed of
by another secret military contactwho may have been in charge of Project Serpo.

I know that many have come to denounce these claims as hoaxes, but trust me,
it gets that deeply involved and no, the public does not know the half of it!

=============================================

LJ

4/11/2006 10:01:25 PM

C:

More thoughts.. not that I want to convince you one way or the other (well, I
suppose I am).. .but really, .just wanting to post tid-bits as I happen to think of
them..

The Hills were investigated and questioned by a considerable number of people,
over the years fairly extensively. A hefty handful you could say (including such
notables as Friedman, Hynek and others).

It's interesting to me that as controversial as this has remained, the prevailing
opinion was that the Hills were never viewed as 'nut cases'.

As best as I can summarize, those who have really taken a good, long hard look
at everything on the table, the majority seemed to be in agreement that mere
dreams (or fabrication) simply does not adequately explain what the Hills described.

Certainly, there's bound to be other views in this regard, 'cause we obviously
don't have the proof.. as a result, we can always mold an explanation for
everything under the sun.. but for me, I'm simply impressed with the collective
total of everything that's been discussed and bounced back and forth.

No doubt, the issues about the Hills having had dreams, read books, watched
movies and so forth are legitimate ones and fair game.. .. but these issues seem
somewhat awkward.. to me, they tend to overlook or don't satisfactorily explain
such things as the reported marks on the Hills' vehicle, the unaccounted time.. and
the radar track of an unknown. Instead, I sense that we want sift through a pile of
leaves on the ground to see if we can make something out of this or that. Maybe
I'm wrong.. or maybe I'm so convinced already, that I'm unwilling to consider
more assertions.. I can't say for sure..

As of now tho, I'm very comfortable with the fact that I haven't made any rush to
judgement as far as my opinion goes and I'm persuaded that the likelihood of their
story being the real deal, leans more to their favor.

Apologizies for kinda side-stepping your questions on MacDonald; there's alot of
details I can't recall (other than generalizations), so I don't want to add any fluff..


LJ

=========================================


C

4/11/2006 10:09:26 PM

I'd like to take a look at some of the transcripts of the interviews with the Hills. If
you know of a source to get that... would be nice as i can't find any.

=========================================


parsec

9/30/2008 9:59:11 PM

The link provided in the first post of this thread no longer brings you to the list, so
I can't comment on it, of course.

Off the top of my head, the Cash Landrum case is a major one, IMO. I saw an
interview with the two women, and I can't believe a couple of good ol' country girls would ever come up with a UFO hoax. One of the women (not sure which)
started out by saying she was "...mad as hell..." at the govenment for not coming
clean on their experience, since she was convinced they were involved. The
other said she was still physically ill from the experience, with major medical
problems. One of them passed away recently, I know nothing beyond that. If the
military was testing an X project, say nuclear powered flying craft of some sort,
that is the most mundane explanation. The testing of ET technology would be far
more significant. It would be interesting to speak with the guy, at the time a child,
that was with the ladies and had physical affects to his body from some kind of exposure, apparently.

I think the JAL over Canada sighting/incident is very significant, but is one of
those cases that just fades away like so many others.

The Belgium Triangles will always be a major case and remains a mystery.

The triangular UFO seen by police and others in several western Illinois towns, and was featured in Peter Jenning UFO special, is a good case. Seen and tracked my multiple officers, and reported by them too, across many miles and several towns.
One officer said the craft came low over a field he was next to, went behind
some trees, and in an instant was a mile in the distance. He told his story on camera.

I sure don't disagree with the others I've seen mentioned in this thread, and
wanted to add a few as well.

================================================

LJ

9/30/2008 10:54:57 PM

P...

Yep, the original link seems to be well outdated (and gone) now.. No doubt,
there's an ungodly number of sites which still list all the most prominent cases, but
those which have stuck with me most include:

The Betty and Barney Hill abduction
The Shag Harbor incident
The Malmstrom ufo incident
The Tremonton Utah film
The 1952 Washington DC weekend flaps
The Cash / Landrum incident
The Bentwaters incidents
The Socorro incident
The Trindade Island incident
The McMinnville ufo

Many of these are rather dated now and I can't recall the dates, but I found
them all rather fascinating..


LJ

======================================


parsec

10/15/2008 5:59:38 AM

LJ,

I'm familiar with most of the cases you mentioned and agree they are important
ones. That they are dated as you said does not matter to me and means they
have withstood the test of time, IMO. I need to check out the Tremonton Utah film,
Trindade Island incident, and the McMinnville ufo, which I don't think I am aware of.

I've always found the JAL 747 encounter to be an amazing case. What is the
name of the case where the two guys from Louisiana or Georgia were abducted
while fishing, and later (at least one of them) were on the Dick Cavet show?
I don't recall while just writing this. The incident in California during WWII where
UFOs were fired upon strikes me as being important, and is one that is
convieniently forgotten. Certainly far more than an individual personal sighting,
and I wonder how often unidentified or non-existant targets are fired upon by
the military.

There are plenty of "high strangeness" cases out there, if we will only open
our minds to them.

===============================================


LJ

10/15/2008 9:46:06 AM

Hey P...

Although I entirely agree with you, that just because many of these well publicized
cases have become dated, the stronger of those should still remain in the forefront
of our arguments (since those support our view that this phenom shouldn't be
rejected or neglected so quickly or so easily based upon the rigid application of
the demand for proof argument).

But like anything else, the passage of time takes it toll. Memories fade and even the
most compelling of accounts imo, seem to lose their luster and become lost in the
great ufo cases maze. Skeptics (and advocates of the proof of demand
argument, who adamantly proclaim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary
proof), just don't seem overly anxious to keep these accounts in the forefront.. but,
that's just my biased opinion.

For sure, one could compiled a much lengthier list of good cases than what I
jotted down above.. I simply listed a handful of those that I clung to most for one
reason or another.

I think the one you're referring to that I didn't mention was the Pascagoula incident
involving two people (parker and hickson?). I don't recall my reasoning at the time,
but I simply never accepted their tale.. much like Travis Walton's or worse, like
Billy Meier's. On the other hand, the Allagash account is another interesting
account where I'm willing to accept that something extraordinary did occur as
reported, simply because there were several people involved.


LJ

=============================================



parsec

10/15/2008 1:08:24 PM

Yes, as LJ states, even the good cases fade into obscurity over time. Keeping
these things current is difficult, along the lines of C' post regarding making
any progress with the UFO phenomenon. What can the average person do to
research a case and find additional information about it? Regrettably, they all
become dead ends. Even the application of professional analysis and resources
may not lead us to any conclusions or further insights, beyond debunking the
case, which is fine if there is a true conventional explanation.

You are right LJ, I was referring to the Pascagoula incident, thanks for helping
me out. While the Billy Meiers stuff qualifies as high crapola (IMO) I did not think
the Travis Walton case was anywhere near that (which you really did not say,
just that you're a bit skeptical about it.) I gave the Pascgoula incident credibility
due to the account I read about it, which seemed credible, and did not see the
"victims" as the type to be such consumate actors to create a hoax, as I felt
about the Cash/Landrum ladies. But I may well be wrong about those guys.

Cash/Landrum remains in my top ten, if only as our military being caught with
their experimental pants down and the implications of what exists in the black
project world. The Cash/Landrum ladies have my sympathies regardless of
what happened.

If true, the Allagash (forest?) incident is included in my list of high strangeness
cases. LJ's skepticism of it does make me think twice about it, since we tend
to be on the same page regarding the UFO phenomenon in general. As always,
I'm open to other opinions.

============================================


steveh

11/3/2008 2:45:07 AM


This is a fascinating discussion and thanks to all the contributors.

Like some, the Hill cases was the one that really got me started into this area, although
I had also read the Adamski books which fascinated me at the time but now contain
more that a hint of fakery and I don't take them seriously.

The omission of the Travis Walton case from some peoples top ten intrigues me as
imo it's one of the classics that has not been convincingly debunked, although many
have tried. The involvement of multiple witnesses who have passed polygraphs and
Walton's testimony which did not involve hypnosis add up to a more credible scenario
than the Hill's case in my mind.

The Hill case still fascinates me and in reply to another poster I have read some of the
book again. While I have no doubts about the sincerity of the Hills, I just can't see why
people as ordinary as they would want to attract attention to themselves, there are
inconsistencies in their accounts, which they have admitted.

One of the telling ones for me is the issue of "time". At one point the "leader" asked
Betty to explain what time was, as if he had no idea what it was, yet before they were
taken on board, one alien said

On Page159 Betty under hyponsis recalls one of the aliens said

"You'll be on your way back home in no time"

P161

One of the aliens said "We haven't got much time either"

How can we account for this, is it just a reflection of the imperfection of hypnosis or
the possibility that it was all just a dream , which like most dreams are just reflections
of our fears and hopes rather than reality ?

===================================

parsec

11/3/2008 8:15:25 AM


In response to steveh' comments about Betty Hill's seemingly inconsistent statements
about the ETs not understanding time and yet using the concept in speaking with
the Hills prior to the ET leaders question, I came up with this explanation.

Assuming of course this all transpired, I'm thinking the ET leaders question to Betty
about what time is was a test of her understanding of the concept, and by extention,
the extent that we humans understand time scientifically. The question may have
also been a simple test of her intelligence. I believe the ETs knew quite well what
time is, as they used the expression "in no time" when speaking to them. IMO, they
could not have used such a phrase without understanding what it means to us.

I see two implications in this particular incident. One is that there is more to time
than we understand, as the ETs were curious about our extent of our understanding
of it. Also, I believe this is a clue that indicates the Hill's case did happen. IMO, Betty
Hill did not understand the true intent of the ET leaders question, which was to gauge
her understanding of time, not to learn about an unknown concept to them. That
difference, which Betty Hill missed (or seems to have missed) is a subtlety that would
take a lot of thought to fabricate, as well as being easily overlooked by those
examining their claims. Given the above, which is actually quite simple but not so
obvious, this small detail IMO adds credibility to their story, as an indirect indication
that this did happen, gleaned from Betty's testimony yet misunderstood by her of what
was really happening.

I may be reading way more into this than is there, but IMO my explanation does make
at least some sense. I invite comments and debunking (HA!) of this idea, as I must say
I have not read the book about the Hill's case and am just going by what steveh
posted (not to blame him in any way). So what do you think?

=========================================

LJ

11/3/2008 12:06:51 PM


Yes, some of these accounts can lead to some rather extensive discussions,
both for and against..

So please keep in mind, my opinion is my opinion and no better than anyone elses.
I do however, slightly differ with steveh in some respects.

I really don't know where to begin, because there's so many aspects to this that I
feel are important, I'm probably going to sound like a raving lunatic..

The truth is, to coin the phrase, is that I feel much more comfortable with the Hills'
reported abduction than I do with most, if not all others. The reasons for this are
varied and difficult to condense into just a sentence or two. In reading all the talk
about the Hill's case, there shouldn't be any doubt that no matter how persuasive
something my appear to be, if one digs and digs and digs, you're bound to be able
to find some little tidbit that could be reinterpreted or misinterpreted, or contorted in
such a manner (after the fact), that it could be very easy to put the term
'discrepancy' in the spotlight.. more so, if one has plans to write a book down the
road, as I suspect one of our other members might be contemplating..

In any event, I think it's entirely probable that the Hill's both provided what they
could, to the best of the ability. Such a traumatic experience would, imo, affect
them extensively, in varying degrees to where, over time, the impact of that event
would create confusion, doubt and endless question.. especially from a
disbelieving community.

Heck, I'm sure even the Hills themselves weren't able to put or keep every little
detail in its proper perspective. I don't know that any of us could. Unfortunately,
the Hills aren't able to represent themselves any further, having passed on.. so,
whatever conclusions are drawn or whatever books are written from this point on,
they are going to be geared to trying to unseed the Hills' account.. this, I think, is
a shame.

I remain particularly impressed with the powerful emotional impact that this has
had.. more so, upon Barney Hill than Betty. I had listened to various audio portions
of his recount many times in the past and I am just not willing to attribute the
intensity of that emotion to poorly applied hypnosis, influence from tv shows and
all of the other convenient explanations. I think their physical health also suffered
as a result of their experience.

Of the more interesting aspects of their account, the pregnancy test and the issue
over the false teeth were notable, imo.. these seem to represent a couple of
hurdles that skeptics (and others) wish to overcome by any means possible.
To make a long story shorter, I don't believe that Betty concocted these references,
no matter which direction doubters wish to take.

And this issue with the 'time' imo, represents just another handle that some may
want to grab hold of in order to create some level of doubt.. again, just my opinion.
I agree with Parsec's assertion that the aliens were familiar with 'time' in some
manner. If I recall, the aliens weren't exactly willing to reveal anything more than
what they thought Betty had an understanding for.. i.e. this point may have
surfaced when they were discussing their point of origin with Betty, I can't recall
precisely.

The bottom line is that the Hills were very courageous in revealing what they did.
Their maintaining their position, putting their names, faces and reputations on the
line for as long as they did (up until their passing) holds more weight with me than
most other claims, who have excuse after excuse for not making even the most
marginal of efforts.

I didn't include Walton's case in my list of notable accounts because it's one of
those that I personally doubt.. and I still haven't committed myself to the
Pascagoula case (hickson and parker) or the Allagash matter, which I lean to
accepting. And of course, the Billy Meier saga is nowhere in sight, in my list of
serious contenders..

Walton's situation, imo, contained many angles that just didn't sit well with me.
I was concerned with the possible motive that he was trying to get out from under
from a forestry contract as one point I recall. Another was with his mother's
apparent lack of reaction to his disappearance/return, if I recall another sticking
point. And the entire polygraph issue was just too debateable, overall. You can't
just select the tests that favor your position and write off those that don't.

Admittedly, at this point, I can't cite to you each of my initial doubts, because it's
been awhile since I really challenged myself on his claims.. I suppose we could
go round and round on this without coming to agreement. If all of those principals
were to take independent testing today, which were not self sponsored and where
they had absolutely no control of question parameters or testors, and all were to
pass, I'd reconsider my point of view.



LJ

=============================================

steveh

11/4/2008 9:37:31 PM

LJ,

If you wish to consider me a "doubter" in relation to the Hill case all I can say is you
have to consider all the options. If you look at the "Alien reaction in Hill case"
thread you will see that have have listed various possible explanations for the time
inconsistency including the one parsec decided on, and I think that is a likely
possibility; ie they were testing Betty's understanding of a basic scientific principle,
possibly to see if they could go further with contacts with her .

The "star map" incident is also good evidence, seeing as her map has been
compared to maps of other star systems Tau Ceti and Epsilon Eradani, so the
finding of life in these systems may well prove the case at a later date.

I'd be interested in contributors assessments of the Linda Cortille case as detailed
in Bud Hopkins book "Witnessed". I have not got around to reading it yet but perhaps
somew others have and would like to comment.

I found a good analysis of the case at

http://www.gregsandow.com/ufo/Contents/From_IUR_--_An_Analysis_of_the/from_iur_--_an_analysis_of_the.htm

which is well worth reading

==========================================

starman2003

11/6/2008 4:07:50 AM

The 2007 Somalia landing case may be too recent for this thread but has it been
investigated and if so, what is the conclusion?

========================================

parsec

11/6/2008 6:50:13 AM

Although it is small inconsistencies that can reveal the truth of a situation, as in
criminal incidents and their investigation, I don't think that is always the case. In
any complex occurence or "story", it is easy to make mistakes about details, as in
making a wrong final turn after navigating through a long, first time journey by car.

Since the debunkers as well as believers are watching for problems with a case, we
focus on them and they are in some instances blown out of proportion. Or things are
misinterpreted and lead us down the wrong path. While I'm not trying to pat myself
on the back, the idea that the motivation of the ET's question about time was simply
a test of Betty HIlls knowledge of it is simple and makes sense. This details of this
case also shows how easy a mistake or misunderstanding can affect the overall
situation. But conversely, details can be very revealing and add tremendously to
credibility, which is also why when those details point towards a hoax, we tend to
believe that.

In the HIll's case, the detail of the star map that steveh mentions, I find to be
compelling and is indicative of the extent to which the Hill's would of had to plan
a hoax, which considering the overall case, would be one of the greatest of all time.

I'm not familiar with the Somalia case that Starman2003 mentioned, can it be found
among the case on this site?

=======================================

steveh

11/6/2008 12:32:25 PM

Google "Somalia UFO"

details appear rather sketchy from, what I have seen

======================================

parsec

11/7/2008 5:18:36 AM

I searched this Somalia case and sure didn't come up with much, basically the same
few sentences over and over again. From the report, it "... looked like a satellite or
UFO... either crashed or landed although seemed to be doing things like "... speaking
to them in a language they can't understand...". Supposedly it "... takes up an area of
100 square meters...", about 33 feet on each side of a square which would be a pretty
big object and rather large for a satellite.

Beyond that there is nothing else in the reports regarding a conclusion, so that is the
answer Starman2003, no conclusion that I could find. Kind of interesting but really not
much to it so unfortunately IMO it is not much of a case.

=======================================

skeates_hater

11/25/2008 2:49:38 AM

One case that is not mentioned here is the Colares "flap" on the island of Colares in
Brazil in 1977

Unlike all the above cases in the "Top 10" , which were transitory, this flap lasted
about 6 MONTHS, injuring 35 people with 2 fatalities.

It was investigated by the Brazilian Air force and a case analysis can be found at
http://www.ufologie.net/htm/colarespics.htm

I think it would be a shame if a case of this magnitude was overlooked due to a
"did not happen here " mentality, or some feeling that because it happened to
relatively uneducated people they were all being fooled.

There is more evidence for this case than all the others put together imo , not
only in eyewitness accounts (none obtained under hypnosis), but in the files of the
Brazilian Air Force, many of which are still classified.

======================================


starman2003

11/25/2008 6:06:17 AM

I agree that Colares is important but for some reason, it hasn't quite captured the
imagination of many people here.

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parsec

11/25/2008 6:43:39 AM

Just read much of what was available via the link provided about this Colares case.
I was unaware of this case, but OMG, it is something! Certainly unique in many aspects,
as in the injury and death of some of the locals, so much for the benign nature of ET!

I can't see a case spanning such a long period of time and affecting so many people
including doctors, journalists, and the military being a hoax. I think that J. Vallee's
comment to be telling and a significant editorial commentary regarding the response
by the scientific community to phenomenon such as this.

Indeed, a significant case, thanks for posting it. I need to study it further.

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LJ

11/25/2008 10:01:30 AM

Please keep in mind that my personal list of cases (that I listed somewhere in
this reconstruct) were simply those which remained near the top of my interest
list, for whatever the reason..

Certainly, you could easily add many more accounts to that tally.. I imagine Roswell
would be one.. the Phoenix lights sighting, the Delphos Kansas incident,
Thomas Mantell's attempted intercept, the Lawrence Coyne helicopter encounter
and many other pilot reports for example.. and yes, even Corales which we
discussed at length previously (and has since become literally buried under tons
of garbage threads).

I agree with starman's point that for whatever the reason, Colares simply didn't
capture the same level of interest or attention that many other cases have.

I think my initial intent to this thread was to emphasize the notion that just because
these accounts have become dated, they're just as valuable in one respect or
another today as their original telling. Many of these have, imo, withstood the
skeptical treatment fairly well over long periods of time. And they should remain
a part of our arguments which embrace the position that there is substance to
this phenom.

LJ
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