The Demand for Proof Concept (Reconstructed Thread)

LJ
6/21/2006 8:22:18 AM The Demand For Proof Concept

Here's an old article that you gotta enjoy, by Seth Shostak at SETI, that is amusing
when you consider the 'demand for proof' concept that most like to fall back on..

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_ufo_050714.html

If you read his first bulleted comment, he suggests that the idea of collecting and
secreting away convincing proof is an argument from ignorance..

Guess he's never heard of the Kecksburg event, because that's exactly what took
place there. That evidence, whatever it's origin, Earthly or not, was in fact,
secreted away and has remained out of public view for some 40 years now. How
convenient.

I suppose views like Seth Shostak's just don't consider this as a possibility.

In his closing paragraph, I don't disagree with the basic idea that the burden of proof
is on those making the claims.. but, this view of not accepting accept anything
short of concrete proof totally dismisses credible accounts where the witness(es)
didn't have any say-so in their event. Just because a few are obvious hoaxes
doesn't justify dismissing all accounts.

If you're familiar with the Lawrence Coyne helicopter incident, for example, where
the crew reported a close-up encounter with an unconventional object, I might ask
people like Seth Shostak, just what the hell was the crew supposed to do, in those
circumstances, to acquire proof? Do we simply discount credible claims that an
experienced crew provide.. evidently, we do because it doesn't satisfy the
demands for proof.

This is where my conflict lies.. it illustrates that the demand for proof argument
isn't entirely fair or the best of arguments.. it may be a reasonable demand, but just
because we aren't in the position to analyze what we can't put on the table
doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But people like Seth Shostak and the scientific
community in general, seem to think so.




LJ

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ixiy

6/21/2006 9:01:49 AM

speaking of secrets, i wonder what the vatican city has locked up in its vaults,
after all the pope was supposed to have acknowledged that UFO exists, and to
ask Prof Stephen Hawkings not to "study god's work".

perhaps the government and the vatican city are hidding the same type of proof.
revealing the secret may cause both to lose their power over most humans.

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LJ

6/21/2006 9:27:38 AM

Not sure about the vatican thing.. perhaps something I need to read up on...

But, as I was trying to get to, I'm never been entirely comfortable with the demand
for proof perspective.. maybe it's one of those reasonable and fashionable norms to
fall back on.. but I don't believe that a truly objective point of view can lock itself into
it so tightly that they won't consider any possibilities in-between (i.e. circumstantial
evidence).

Same thing goes with the notion that some will defend just as vigorously, that is, that
certain secrets (i.e. proof of extraterrestrial life) just cannot be kept or maintained
due to inherent human frailties. I think this is just another of those arguments that
sounds good on paper, but hardly proven as being an absolute.



LJ

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VelveetaSlingshot

6/21/2006 10:15:12 AM

Wow, its interesting that you brought this up today. I was watching a special on the
Cuban Missile Crisis on the history channel this morning. They were talking about
how the Pentagon asked the newspapers to not print a story about the missiles
because it would enflame the situation and panic the public. The media complied
and waited for approval to release the story.

This proves, without a doubt, that the government does in fact have the power to
cover up something huge if it really wants to. Though it was only for a short time,
the government effectively kept America in the dark that there were nuclear
missiles 90 miles from the continental U.S. It makes you wonder what else they
have covered up in the past.

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LJ

6/21/2006 12:00:38 PM

Agreed.. I remember seeing that some time ago..

Sorry if I'm straying from my topic a bit, but since you mentioned the media, I was
thinking of another event..

..maybe I'm making a terrible comparison here, but remember the 1952 Washington
flaps? In those days, it was pretty much standard to accept the official government
lines on just about anything.. nothing was really challenged, as it is today.

Despite the fact that the Washington UFO events involved radar-visual confirmations
of objects in the sky (by at least one fighter pilot and several people on the ground),
the media (and the public) dutifully accepted the 'temperature inversion'
explanations..

..how and why this was so widely accepted, I still don't understand, since the
circumstantial evidence suggested a better explanation than was offered.. Perhaps
radar simply wasn't as widely understood as it is today.. I dunno..

..but the fact remains that those ufo events were effectively smokescreened
away under some ridiculous and faulty explanation and the media freely acted as
the messenger.. I think the media and the public was taken advantage of, simply
due to the mindset in those days.

True, the media today isn't as gullible as it once was, but I think they are still very
much influenced on a lot of matters, be it the ufo subject or other things.



LJ

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DocMoriarty

6/21/2006 12:34:26 PM

It might get increasingly harder for the Pentagon to cover up stuff due to the
internet. They might be able to have influence on US and maybe some other
countries mainstream media but they can't completely control the internet.

But thats perhaps also one of the reasons, why there are so incredible amounts
of frauds and hoaxes on the web. Hiding and ridiculing the truth by sorrounding
it with lots of more or less obvious hoaxes to control public opionion.

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Krafty

6/22/2006 9:34:20 PM

LJ,

I read Stan Friedman's column ( it's called "perceptions") in this month's edition
of the MUFON Journal and he talks about SETI and Mr. Shostak. It's obvious
when reading the article that Friedman thinks Shostak is a moron. He goes into
the Sagan statement ("extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof")
a little bit as well. He thinks Sagan's statement is ludicrous - basically saying
(and I paraphrase) - why is it extraordinay to believe that in a universe 13 billion
years old that aliens could not be visiting this planet.

Anyway, the gist of the article is that Shostak believes that there is really no
credible evidence and Friedman thinks that is a crock. At the end of the article
Friedman basically states to Shostak, why put radio signals into outer space
when you could study the evidence of alien visitation right here on earth.

1 for friedman
0 for SETI and Shostak.

Krafty
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DocMoriarty

6/23/2006 11:07:20 AM

I was never really happy with SETI for a couple reasons. For example, we
discovered electromagnetic waves like 100 years ago and they are slow as
hell ... ummm i mean speed of light. And the reason we haven't discovered
anything faster or better is IMO not, that there is nothing, it is that we are not
advanced enough yet.

And if aliens communicate over far distances and are a tad further advanced,
they might use something different, or better, have to. So SETI with the current
means is basically a huge waste of time and resources. And i think now they
are trying the same with lasers, which isn't better either. If aliens communicate
over far distances, they are definitly using something that is a tiny tad faster than
light and we actually have a faint idea already, what it could be, just don't know
what to do with it yet or how we could use it (etangled particles).


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Celestian Falcon

6/23/2006 3:00:09 PM

U people here would not know truth from false and secret from declassified
if you had to! You think you are a serious people over the UFO debating crisis
as your President John F. Kennedy described. You want evil so bad that you
would shove to pass on to us who are ascended by the 5th gate. Your retribution
to confine morally to your kindred and your religions to pass an earthly judgment
onto us. Even if you had to know the truth you still could never accept it for all
it is. You do not understand me because I am alien and carry an alien gene that
has been discovered by doctors. Well, then you ask why aren't I on CNN front
cover. Hmm, actually I have been only to be rediculed for it. Dumb stupid asses.
I will have no part of this world and I have come to lay my claims of victory over
it. Your world is about to be wiped away for a better world to bring by the
5th stargate and we will rise to bring the earth to the 4th ascension before man
and man will dawn to see the Enlightened Path of Gloory and Victory.

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LJ

6/24/2006 12:00:16 PM

Krafty..

Thanks for info... I hadn't read that particular item you referred to, and will
attempt to locate it (out of curiosity)..

Again, just from the bits and pieces that I've read from Seth Shostak, I'm not
overly impressed with some of his thinking..



LJ

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Dale

6/24/2006 12:26:40 PM

"In what must be a historic first, a high official of the Vatican and a Hebrew
scholar discussed the issue of Extraterrestrials and the Creation of Man, and
though different from each other in upbringing, background, religion and
methodology, nevertheless arrived at common conclusions:"

* Yes, Extraterrestrials can and do exist on other planets
* Yes, they can be more advanced than us
* Yes, materially, Man could have been fashioned from a pre-existing sentient
being.

......................................................................................................................................

These statements are from the last website I posted.

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Celestian Falcon

6/24/2006 1:04:58 PM

Dale:

Thank you for not being like the rest of the members who have slandered my name
and have deemed me and Bob Lazar to be a hoax and thanks for not ignoring me
because a few people cannot understand me. I know i need help but the help i need
can only be achieved by putting me back through MILABs. Unfortunately soe things
have happned to me medically and i cannot get back into the military. It was
the year 2001 or 2002 I spoke with someone from the Freedom of the Press on a
live CNN talk show. The segmnent was short lived and I was rediculed on CNN
by other reviewers. Actually the stroy made the news but went on as some sort
of joke and I became angry and was kicked out of CNN membership forums. I really
do not know if it is still there but it may be.

My story was aboyut my l;ast physical abduction that took p[lace in the mid 1990's
where I came into contact with reptilian aliens who took a small black neigbor child
and I was with spaceman who is Nordic and was one of them.
I assisted the aliens and told everyone to calm down and it was ok but could not
get my moter to calm down or stop crying. My entire family again for the second
time had the same dreams that night about these aliens who came back to see us.

They made my father a contactee and showed him instructions for operating a UFO
main flight deck and took him into the secret navigation rooms to debrief him and
instruct him that the aliens were giving the US government their UFO technology in
hopes for a better contact to be made and that the US might take a different recourse
for the advancements of space and technology. We were going to publish a book but
my father and our encounters stopped after about 2 weeks and there was Angel Hair
droppings surrounding our apartment and all over the pool. Even though I have
interviewed other numerous alien abduction victims, it is my stories that is the only
one I have ever heard of or experienced where alien abduction dreams and physical
encounters occured with an entire group of people who shared the same dreams and
experiences and were later found awaken out of bed standing or sitting in a trance.

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Experiencer

6/24/2006 1:33:27 PM

LJ

I believe there should be some modicum of credibility afforded to those reporting
unusual events when those persons are known to be credible people in all other
aspects of their lives. The current attitude taken by many implies that if you
experience an unusual event you must prove it occurred before your report can
be taken seriously.

The demand for proof is often extreme. I personally equate it to an incident in
which a young woman might walk into a police station and report having been
kidnapped and assaulted. The police do make an effort to determine whether
this is a credible report; but obviously, the fact they investigate the possibility it's
true means they have given the woman some level of credibility. If they had taken
the same attitude extended toward those reporting ufos they would have told
the young woman. " I'm sorry, if you can't provide a photo of the perpetrator and
the blueprint to his vehice's engine, I just can't accept your statements as being
true." They would simply ignore her.

It seems whenever one reports a ufo related event they are expected to be able
to explain many factors they aren't prepared to interpret; ie. the mode of
propulsion, the alien's intentions, etc. Then too, if you do experience an unusual
event you better have psychic abilities to somehow anticipate you're going to have
this experience - so you can have a professional film crew documenting evrything,
cause you know that's the type of evidence that will be expected.


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LJ

6/24/2006 1:57:27 PM

Experiencer..

It seems whenever one reports a ufo related event they are expected to be able
to explain many factors they aren't prepared to interpret..

Exactly.. that's precisely what I was trying to say (lengthy as my initial post was).

I fully understand the need for some basic ground rules, i.e. the demand for proof. It
seems reasonable enough and well intentioned.. but, it's not an argument that should
be locked in concrete as some cling to (I used Seth Shostak as my example.. but
there's many others). There has to be some element of flexibility in one's position
or it becomes bogus, in my book.

Again, I fall back to my old favorite, the Lawrence Coyne helicopter incident. It was
rather an impressive case, given the experience and credibility of the witnesses
(not to mention the reported event itself).

Bottom line is, how in the world can anyone, faced with a chance encounter of that
magnitude, be expected to explain something they are not prepared or equipped
for? They can't, if you apply reason. Yet, some seem to place the demand for
proof above all else. Unfortunately, that's a reality.


LJ

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Celestian Falcon

6/24/2006 2:32:39 PM

LJ:

I have spent over 20 years of UFO research and interviewed with dozens of
individuals who have had alien UFO encounters. I have found a few hoaxes but
many are not. Most witnesses are only able to offer very little detail regarding their
experiences and often have to have hypnotic regression to gain further evidence
and details involving alien abduction encounters. "It seems whenever one reports
a ufo related event they are expected to be able to explain many factors they
aren't prepared to interpret.." So, what happens when all evidence has been
discovered and the story unfolds with great detail to offer evidence of alien UFo
abduiction events? They get attacked and are often regarded as false. It seems to
more truth about alien abductions that unfold the more lies about it are also told to
succrete the details involved to another stroy that is often a lie by many UFO
fanatics such as many on this board who only have their knowledges gained from
what they are able to read about. So what happens when the real truth gets told
is often it is debunked and discredited to the point of non-belief.

24% of all Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens but most of
the UFO phenonomen events are occuring in other remote regions of the world
where the abduction events go unreported and unaccounted for.

If 24% of all Americans have been abducted by aliens then the rest of the events
taking place in the world must be in the upper 40% bracket. If we break this
contengience down by a factor of weight of eviodence and proof and weigh the
facts to adjust that 80% of the factual evidences are false and offer another
explantion we come up with an amazing factor that roughly 8-9% of Americans
will be abducted by aliens and roughly 14-20% of the world population will have
an encounter. Each of these encounters seem spuratic and are not what I would
call ET choosing any particuliar individual but rather occurs by region and
happenance. Dr. Stephen Greer's UFO Disclosure Campaign only offers the most
credible people from the military and is regarded highly credible. Though i am
from the military and have been validated by the UFo Disclosure Campaign, I
also know firsxt hand there are innocent civilians involved and that many
groups who offer solid substantial evidence across the world often go unbelieved
or ignored.

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steveh

4/17/2008 2:31:53 PM

I've seen Seth Shostak interviewed a number of times and have not been impressed
with his facetious and sniggering approach to the ufo situation.

Lets face it, his job is to sit around all day looking for life in outer space. If alien life
is found to have visited earth, there will be no need for his project, and he is out
of a job. So he will be in denial mode about ufos until he retires at least.

The arguments put up by people like him againt et visits are ridiculous. "The too
far to go" excuse is palpably inadequate. If aliens have had space travel for possibly
thousands if not millions of years, they would have had plenty of time to establish
bases around the galaxy, perhaps on our moon, or even on the earth from which
they conduct their investigations. So that is one argument dealt with.

Mr Shostak and other "scientists" like him should stop treating people like idiots
and look at some evidence like all the sightings and reports on this site for a start.


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steveh

4/17/2008 2:58:56 PM

I just read the article that started this post, and it's just as flippant as the rest of his
utterances.

I find it interesting that he is willing to debunk photographic evidence, but is NOT
willing to provide evidence of his own that these photographs are fakes or depict
natural phenomena. If he is so sure they are fakes, he should find this easy to prove.

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SpecialAgentMulder

4/17/2008 5:52:41 PM

With respect to SETI and Seth Shostak: Let's assume the government does have
evidence of ET existence. One part of the governments effort to protect this
information would be a psyops campaign. This would include the standard fare:
discredit all viable witnesses, disinformation via media and agency outlets,
protect all real programs and research related to this both by
compartmentalization and deception (e.g. set up cover foundations to provide
grants to do research related to ET, but tell them it is for some other benign
purpose, so that only the board members of the non-profit and perhaps one
plant on the research team know the real purpose). Finally, show scientifically
that the ET hypothesis is untenable... e.g. set up a cover organization that the
public has some knowledge of that purports to address the issue in a scientific
way, then show that there really isn't any evidence of ETs. I think that is what
Blue Book was for, and I think that SETI is the same thing. If this is true, only a
handful at the top would be aware of the true purpose of the program, but they
would guide everyone else down dead-end paths and set the corporate cultural
norms of skepticism and negativity for the organization.

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teveh

4/17/2008 9:07:57 PM

S.A.M.

Thats the most cynical opinion I've ever heard.

Spot on though.

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parsec

9/28/2008 6:29:08 PM

I just read S. Shostak's commentary for the first time. A few things strike me
immediately. In no particular order:

No one is a competent witness, even pilots or astronauts.

All photographic evidence is worthless unless it can be proved to be real. But
how that is done is not mentioned. The implication is photos cannot be proved
real, period.

He paints with a very broad, coarse brush. Pilots and astronauts are seeing
"lights in the sky..." and that's all. If they cannot recognize it, it is always a
mystery. That is analgous to any of you walking past me on the street, and
since you don't know and recognize me, I don't exist or will never be
recognized.

When believers cannot answer the question what it the proof of ET visitation,
and state they don't know where they are from (how could they?) that was
termed "goofy", and twists the statement into an absurdity about being from
Belgium. If Mr S. cannot say what the source of a radio signal he receives is,
is that goofy?

If anything in a report can be attributed to something else besides being
related to ETs, that is really what it is, with no further proof needed.

The only proof will be an ET spacecraft parked in his driveway, IMO.

Mr. S. seems to be using some of the techniques I posted recently that skeptics
use to run down sightings and reports.

The burden of proof is with us, that is the case. Regardless, does it not seem
that this mans mind is not open very wide at all?

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Esoteric1

9/28/2008 7:55:03 PM

Hmm. Seth Shostak sounds exactly like the skeptics at the forum I was from.
He does treat believers and credible people like heathens who can't recognize
a man-made flying object. That is what people like him do, reduce them to
heathens and reject the evidences even if the UFO phenomenon is under
their noses. It could be, in my opinion, SETI was formed to pretend to look for
extraterrestrial intelligence and in public they declare that they are a scientific
community looking for extraterrestrial intelligence. This is the premise
they use in the statement "there seems to be no intelligent life elsewhere in
the Universe." Or SETI could be a diversionary tactic. They lure the public into
believing that the extraterrestrials are somewhere in the Universe but in reality
they are already here on Earth.


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